Northwest Overshoot / Cert Action....

Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

MQAAord said:
Wow, and pilots never sit with their USA Today? That was a really harsh statement, and surprising to hear from you.

F/As (for some strange reason) usually trust the pilots to safely operate & navigate the plane. What if the pilots were the "shut up and don't bother us" type...

I wasn't on the flight, so I can't say with certainty why the F/As didn't notice, but my educated guess is that enough time hadn't elapsed to raise red flags.
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Hey, I wasn't trying to sound harsh. Sorry if it did sound harsh, but it was a true statement. And, you're right. Many pilots ARE oblivious to the world around them. This is what started this thread in the first place!! If they weren't, then this aircraft wouldn't have flown 150 miles beyond it's destination!!

Wasn't trying to be offensive, but you know me well enough to know that I don't candy-coat the truth to keep from ruffling feathers!!!
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

mtsu_av8er said:
Wasn't trying to be offensive, but you know me well enough to know that I don't candy-coat the truth to keep from ruffling feathers!!!
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I love it when people speak their mind on here instead of the constant sugar coating that goes on.
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

I know.

I've been on flights into ORD that have been sent damn near to SBN before turning to land. Was I aware that we were flying away from ORD, where we were going? Of course, but I also knew enough to know that sometimes you get vectored that far out. So that didn't make me think twice. But I certainly wasn't in the aft galley reading a "People" magazine :)
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

MQAAord said:
I know.

I've been on flights into ORD that have been sent damn near to SBN before turning to land. Was I aware that we were flying away from ORD, where we were going? Of course, but I also knew enough to know that sometimes you get vectored that far out. So that didn't make me think twice. But I certainly wasn't in the aft galley reading a "People" magazine :)
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Oh, no doubt! Sometimes, ATC gets silly. I always joke that we might need to divert when New York approach sends us "up the Hudson" so far that they're calling out White Plains traffic to us. So, it definitely happens.

So, I definitely meant no offense to flight attendants as a whole when I made that comment. Again, I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I was simply pointing out that if you have a cockpit crew that's not quite in the game, and combine that with a cabin crew that's not quite in the game, and the whole thing can fall apart quickly! And, we all know that it sometimes happens on both sides of the door!
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

mtsu_av8er said:
Have you not noticed that many flight attendants are oblivious to the world around them? Add to that the fact that 150 miles doesn't take that long in a jet, and it's easy for them to be caught up in the aft galley with their U.S. Monthly and people . . .
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Were they driving?

-mini
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

Maybe they were Detroit based crews- plugged the wrong city in the FMC-:)
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

PGT said:
Must have been a pretty heated argument.
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Maybe along the lines of:

Capt: Take over, I'm gonna take a quick nap

FO: OK, but it's technically my turn to nap

Capt: You napped on the last leg, and besides you made a bad landing

FO: I did NOT nap on the last leg, you did

Capt: Bulls**t! It's MY turn to nap (pulls brim of hat down & closes eyes)

FO: And besides, you made the landing

...lather, rinse, repeat
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

I don't get it-whether they are making up their story or not- they are in deep crap! I think they should have said they fell asleep- perhaps they may have gotten a little sympathy!
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

While we really don't know what the cause of this problem was, it sure does look like the pilots were sleeping.

Thank goodness nothing bad happened here other than a late arrival and some pilots with some explaining to do.

FATIGUE FATIGUE FATIGUE FATIGUE can not continue to be ignored, or swept under the rug, by the FAA and by the Airlines.

Pilots know FATIGUE is a major issue and has been for decades.

We also know that FATIGUE contributed to the Buffalo and the Kentucky crashes.

We are not robots. We are human beings. We need proper rest to fly airplanes.

We are now at a time in our history where we have the attention of Congress and the attention of the flying public on these matters.

Firing pilots that are caught sleeping is not the answer to this FATIGUE problem. Making sure pilots are not FATIGUED in the first place is.
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if it WASN'T the FA's that could have saved the day. I would think that after an hour past arrival time, I would be picking up the PA to see WTF was going on.

Fish, I remember when that incident happened. Prior to that, we were allowed to have just 1 pilot and and FE in the cockpit (outside the USA). There were more than a couple of times when there "could" have been some hard-core napping going on. After that, AF changed the rules and we now have to have 2 pilots in the seat all the time. There is nothing like being alerted @ 0200 in the morning after sitting alert for 47.5 hours and being put on an augmented mission...especially after 9/11 when the duty day was waived to 26 hours. Oy vey...those days SUCKED!!!!
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

HeyEng said:
You know, I wouldn't be surprised if it WASN'T the FA's that could have saved the day. I would think that after an hour past arrival time, I would be picking up the PA to see WTF was going on.

.......
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From the Ap Article.....

......Pilots from two other planes in the vicinity were finally able to reach the pilots using a different radio frequency, a controllers union spokesman said. A flight attendant in the cabin also was able to contact them by intercom, said a source close to the investigation who wasn't authorized to talk publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity......
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Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

HeyEng said:
You know, I wouldn't be surprised if it WASN'T the FA's that could have saved the day. I would think that after an hour past arrival time, I would be picking up the PA to see WTF was going on.

Fish, I remember when that incident happened. Prior to that, we were allowed to have just 1 pilot and and FE in the cockpit (outside the USA). There were more than a couple of times when there "could" have been some hard-core napping going on. After that, AF changed the rules and we now have to have 2 pilots in the seat all the time. There is nothing like being alerted @ 0200 in the morning after sitting alert for 47.5 hours and being put on an augmented mission...especially after 9/11 when the duty day was waived to 26 hours. Oy vey...those days SUCKED!!!!
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HeyEng, I think you are thinking of a different incident... because on the one that I'm thinking of the crew never really told anyone.
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

Does anyone know how much the Airbus CVR records? I hear only 30 minutes worth.
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

Trip7 said:
I love it when people speak their mind on here instead of the constant sugar coating that goes on.
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Well Marcus, if you want 24/7 vitriol and "my donger is certainly larger than your donger, yer awf mah jumpseat" all day, there's always APC and Flight Info.
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

SeanD said:
Does anyone know how much the Airbus CVR records? I hear only 30 minutes worth.
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Not sure. Ours have been upgraded to record about 2 hours. It's probably hard to say...CVRs go bad all the time, so some may be older and 30 minutes, and newer ones could be 2 hours or hell, more than that!
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

fish314 said:
HeyEng, I think you are thinking of a different incident... because on the one that I'm thinking of the crew never really told anyone.
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Oh, OK. Yeah, this one people knew about. They wear supposed to be flying west, but woke up to the sun coming up. Oops! :eek:
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

Oh god, leave it to a Cheney.... :) :sarcasm:
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

I'm not sure which would be considered a worse admission: "We were so distracted by our non-essential talking that we ignored ATC, ACARS, TOD, the nav screen, and virtually every aspect of the flight plan for an hour,"

or

"We unintentionally both fell asleep at the same time."

On one hand, the latter is clearly worse. Two pilots arguing would most likely notice serious deterioration in attitude or altitude more quickly than two sleeping pilots. On the other hand, in the first case, you're basically admitting that a conversation was enough to make you ignore virtually all of your training and cluelessly fly right past your destination. To me, in some ways the "falling asleep" explanation is more understandable, and even forgivable, than the "heated argument" explanation. Sleeping is a biological imperative. Getting in heated arguments is not.
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

Center_Mid said:
I'm not sure which would be considered a worse admission: "We were so distracted by our non-essential talking that we ignored ATC, ACARS, TOD, the nav screen, and virtually every aspect of the flight plan for an hour,"

or

"We unintentionally both fell asleep at the same time."

On one hand, the latter is clearly worse. Two pilots arguing would most likely notice serious deterioration in attitude or altitude more quickly than two sleeping pilots. On the other hand, in the first case, you're basically admitting that a conversation was enough to make you ignore virtually all of your training and cluelessly fly right past your destination. To me, in some ways the "falling asleep" explanation is more understandable, and even forgivable, than the "heated argument" explanation. Sleeping is a biological imperative. Getting in heated arguments is not.
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Excellent point. I agree.

-mini
 
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