Northwest Overshoot / Cert Action....

[tonyw]

I still think they did something incredibly stupid, but I'm wondering now where this information is coming from.

Their own mouths. I mean, yes, by all means, let the fact finding process take place, but when someone says something instead of just shutting his piehole and saying "no comment," he gets what he deserves.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The above is not a final report, but it is an official report from the NTSB containing statements given to the NTSB, isn't it? That's what I'm basing my opinions on.

Initial reports are meaningless. The information can easily change as more information is found as an investigation continues. The NTSB holds what is commonly called a "sunshine hearing" at the end of a high-profile case, and the final report is released soon after that hearing. All of that takes lots of time, and none of it has been done. No one should be making any conclusions until the process has been allowed to run its course. Again, "process matters."

In addition, Seggy is absolutely right about this information being leaked from several sources that are supposed to be 100% confidential. What the FAA and NTSB are doing in this case is setting us back 20 years in our safety reporting structure. Why on Earth would a pilot trust the ASAP process ever again? The information could just be leaked by an FAA pencil-pusher to satisfy the media vultures. What a great way to encourage a positive safety culture.

 

[MQAAord]

In addition, Seggy is absolutely right about this information being leaked from several sources that are supposed to be 100% confidential. What the FAA and NTSB are doing in this case is setting us back 20 years in our safety reporting structure. Why on Earth would a pilot trust the ASAP process ever again? The information could just be leaked by an FAA pencil-pusher to satisfy the media vultures.

Wow, that is just awful that stuff is being released that shouldn't be! I agree with you completely about pilots not trusting the ASAP process because of this. Not good.

Is there anything ALPA can do about this?

 

[derg]

Apparently, some of the crazy speculation has come from.... The NTSB itself.

Let the games begin!

Dear Fellow Pilot,

Last week, Air Traffic Control (ATC) lost radio contact with Northwest Flight 188, and Flight 188 subsequently overflew its destination before radio contact was reestablished. Once radio contact was reestablished, the aircraft returned to its destination for a safe landing. The aircraft remained visible to ATC radar at all times. Late on Tuesday of this week, the FAA revoked the licenses of the pilots involved in the incident. The incident remains under investigation by the FAA, the NTSB, and Delta Air Lines. While it is not prudent to discuss the specifics of the continuing investigation, I assure you that the full representational resources of the Air Line Pilots Association have been and will remain available to the pilots involved in the incident.

The U.S. aviation transportation system is the safest in the world, and air transportation is statistically the safest form of transportation on the planet. That hasn’t happened by accident. It is the result of many years of hard work and cooperative effort between government, the industry, and labor. As professional pilots, our primary concern is the safety and well-being of our passengers and crew, and your union has played a critically important role in establishing and maintaining our industry’s enviable safety record.

An important and pivotal element of our participation has been the development of Aviation Safety Action Programs (ASAPs) and Flight Operational Quality Assurance (FOQA) programs, which center around and are highly dependent upon voluntary disclosure. This disclosure is based on trust and confidence that it will be subject to certain protections and privacy restrictions. The premise, the validity of which has been demonstrated time and time again, is that this approach leads to a “greater good” by contributing to an overall safer national aviation system through lessons learned from each single event.

The NTSB is an independent federal agency, and according to the NTSB’s own mission statement, is “charged by Congress with investigating every civil aviation accident . . . and issuing safety recommendations aimed at preventing future accidents.”

Let me be perfectly clear. The NTSB’s recent actions and rush to judgment as it relates to the investigation into Flight 188 is both irresponsible and in conflict with its own mission statement. Not only will its recent actions not aid in the prevention of future accidents, their actions risk reducing the effectiveness of programs such as ASAP and FOQA. The Delta pilots are in full compliance with their end of the voluntary disclosure concept; we expect the FAA and NTSB to live up to their end of the agreement as well. Under all circumstances, for voluntary disclosure programs to work, all parties must have faith in and adhere to the concepts they have agreed to.

While it is well within the Board’s purview to disseminate information to the public, common sense and professionalism dictate that the information released not threaten the integrity of the investigation itself, and it should never do more harm than good. It is for this reason that the NTSB’s own procedures caution those involved in an investigation to “refrain from discussing the accident or [the] investigation of it in public, or giving information about either to the press” and warns that “any violation of this restriction will be considered a serious infraction of Board rules.”

Yet less than 24 hours after the incident, the NTSB began commenting and even speculating as to the potential causes of the incident. By Monday, the crew had been interviewed by the Board, and within hours, the NTSB had released details—details only made available by the voluntary statements of the crew—to the public through a poorly timed press release.

Process matters, and due process in these circumstances is essential. From the mechanic to the flight attendant to the air traffic controller to the flight dispatcher to the pilot, our nation’s aviation safety foundation is based on individuals voluntarily coming forward with information to enhance safety. If involved in an incident or accident, these individuals have a right to due process and an expectation that their cooperation not be exploited for the convenience of the agencies involved in the investigation regardless of the pressure those agencies may feel from the media or others.

Two days ago, your MEC issued a strongly worded press release that asserted the future of all safety programs based on self-disclosure will be in jeopardy if the NTSB continues to recklessly disseminate crew-provided information and the FAA continues to take overly drastic certificate actions while investigations are still ongoing. On Wednesday, we spearheaded a resolution passed by the ALPA Executive Board that directed ALPA President Captain John Prater to communicate in the strongest terms to FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt and NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman ALPA’s displeasure and ask that they recommit to acting in a professional and responsible manner and that they follow established processes and protocols to protect the integrity of these important safety programs.

Additionally, I spent Wednesday afternoon on Capitol Hill visiting several congressional offices. Congress must clearly understand the importance of due process during aviation investigations and the value of programs like ASAP and FOQA to the continued improvement of safety in our industry. Your MEC remains committed to the value of ASAP and FOQA, and your union will continue to vigorously pursue recommitments from both the FAA and the NTSB that they abide by the processes to which they have agreed.

As a union and as a profession, we must maintain high standards and continue to do everything we can to advance our safety record. Safety programs based on self-disclosure are an important part of that commitment. It is not too much to expect that the agencies involved in the regulation and investigation of the process be expected to maintain equally high professional standards.

Fraternally,

Lee Moak, Chairman
Delta Master Executive Council
Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l

 

[JoelT]

To give credit where credit is due, that was a good letter from Lee. However, I feel betrayed by Babbit.

 

[Tabatha]

I hope they get to fly again. I don't believe with a mistake like that, they would ever let it happen again.

 

[Vector4Food]

As has been stated, IMO these guys need a length suspension at best. They really screwed up that's a given, but for the simple protection of "turning yourself in" for errors and mistakes to improve the systems safety, they MUST approach this in a different manner.

In my job we do the same thing, and it is a little troubling how fast government agencies want to throw the book at these guys just to appease some nutjob politician.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Is there anything ALPA can do about this?

Yep, and it's a top priority.

To give credit where credit is due, that was a good letter from Lee. However, I feel betrayed by Babbit.

I've felt betrayed by Babbitt for years, so that's nothing new for me. He's better than having some attorney or lawmaker in there, but we would have been much better off if Captain Woerth had gotten the job.

 

[jasoN534ER]

I'm not sure how many others here are bothered by the attention and spin the media has given to this (and just about every other aviation-related) story. If you haven't seen it yet, there is an article that was in huge font on CNN's homepage titled "Airline pilots struggle to stay focused." The fact is that the news wants the public to be afraid of anything that has the slightest control over their safety or life, and it will latch on to whatever can scare people into keeping their TV on a little longer, or clicking on an article that causes some form of drama. They don't care if they make someone's hard work look like it amounts to nothing, or insist that the reader is at an immediate danger of any and every pilot falling asleep or screwing around in the cockpit, as long as it gets that extra page view.

Luckily, CNN has been enabling readers to leave comments, even though the majority of the page viewers will just skim the article and not bother seeing what others have to say about it at the bottom of the page, thus being left with the reporter's scare tactic BS opinion.

For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, or who wants to see it, the article is still making its way around the headlines on their front page, under the 'Travel' category. The direct link is: http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/10/28/pilots.cockpit/index.html and you may also want to let the 'journalist' know that being factual, as opposed to making people afraid of flying (and crapping on the image of pilots in general) for no reason, is what will make him more respected as a reporter.

Anyway, just venting a bit here, and my apologies if most of you have seen this already.

-Jason

 

[Gonzo]

I'm not sure how many others here are bothered by the attention and spin the media has given to this (and just about every other aviation-related) story. If you haven't seen it yet, there is an article that was in huge font on CNN's homepage titled "Airline pilots struggle to stay focused." The fact is that the news wants the public to be afraid of anything that has the slightest control over their safety or life, and it will latch on to whatever can scare people into keeping their TV on a little longer, or clicking on an article that causes some form of drama. They don't care if they make someone's hard work look like it amounts to nothing, or insist that the reader is at an immediate danger of any and every pilot falling asleep or screwing around in the cockpit, as long as it gets that extra page view.

Luckily, CNN has been enabling readers to leave comments, even though the majority of the page viewers will just skim the article and not bother seeing what others have to say about it at the bottom of the page, thus being left with the reporter's scare tactic BS opinion.

For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, or who wants to see it, the article is still making its way around the headlines on their front page, under the 'Travel' category. The direct link is: http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/10/28/pilots.cockpit/index.html and you may also want to let the 'journalist' know that being factual, as opposed to making people afraid of flying (and crapping on the image of pilots in general) for no reason, is what will make him more respected as a reporter.

Anyway, just venting a bit here, and my apologies if most of you have seen this already.

-Jason

I think it was a good article and the video was also good.

 

[OldTownPilot]

I also think that specific article showed a very pragmatic view of the whole thing and really tried to explain the why, rather the the TMZ'd OMG! headline, with the talking heads calling people a bunch nitwits to jack their personal ratings. I loved the point at the end that the retired pilot made, and that with all this happening we have started to over regulate what pilots can and can't do in order to sty alert and focused. The prime example is managed napping. Science has proven it is a good thing, and has been implemented with success in other countries, but here with all the fears over the 24 hour news media we are scared to do anything controversial, and very happy to please the masses, by doing stupid crap that sets up backwards in the end.

 

[tonyw]

but here with all the fears over the 24 hour news media we are scared to do anything controversial, and very happy to please the masses, by doing stupid crap that sets up backwards in the end.

Well, hell, most people are more afraid of being attacked by a terrorist than they are of heart disease or driving, and yet those things kill more people in a year than all of the terrorist attacks the world has ever seen combined.

 

[MFT1Air]

I hope they get to fly again. I don't believe with a mistake like that, they would ever let it happen again.

It'll happen. . .someplace other than the United States I would speculate.