Northwest Overshoot / Cert Action....

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Can't possibly be true. That would only account for 5 minutes, not over an hour. Ha ha ha ah ha ha sorry... couldn't pass that one up.

Actually, it's five minutes of "activity" followed by approximately 60 minutes of snoring soundly afterwards. . .

. . . now it's explained! :D
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Ok to those who obviously dont know me, Let me introduce myself. Its obvious you are protective of each other, and thats good. I am 40, served honorably in the US Navy. I am furloughed 121 and working 135 presently. I'm brusque, and opinionated, and never back down, although I will accept your right to have a differing opinion, as long as you allow me the same benefit....hope you can handle me...:D

Welcome to the club. Believe me when I say these "guys" on this site can handle you. What you say has merit. . .a little/a lot. Don't know in this particular incident however that those here are "protective" of anyone as it relates to the two incidents. I'd say all seem to say a corrective/punitive action should occur for both flights.

Again, as a layperson, I would have more empathy with the stresses experienced by the ATL flight moreso than what went on with the flight crew of the MSP flight.
 
Has anyone read the final NTSB report? Anyone???????

Before judgment is passed, we as professionals must demand the PROCESS takes place and the NTSB issues its report.

If we don't then we risk letting the news media determine aircraft incidents/accidents in the 24 hour news cycle instead of following the years of experience allowing the investigation processes take place.
 
To quote the DAL MEC Chairman, "process matters." Unfortunately, process was not followed in this case. To pacify the media nitwits, the FAA and NTSB took unreasonable action without following proper protocols. Whether you think these pilots deserve to lose their certificates or not (I don't), the process should still be followed.

I don't see how or why a union should be defending these guys.

Not to comment on whether these pilots are guilty or not, but I think this is apt: we defend the guilty to protect the innocent. If the FAA and NTSB are allowed to behave in this manner towards these pilots, completely disregarding all normal processes and protocols, then they'll be able to do the same thing to you when you're not guilty. The way to prevent it is to defend everyone. The idea that everyone is entitled to a fair trial and a defense is a basic principal of American justice. I'm always troubled whenever anyone tries to gloss over that.

I'm all for giving people the benefit of the doubt, and innocent until proven guilty, but these guys admitted to this... I'm still having trouble wrapping my mind around how they could do that, I really am.

Where is the final report? Have you seen it? I doubt it, because it doesn't exist yet, and it won't for quite some time. These pilots are being tried in the media with leaked information that is supposed to be confidential. I find the whole thing absolutely despicable.

In both cases, did the crew not file an ASAP? I am wondering how the FAA, or the company is taking any action before the ERC has reviewed it?

Thank God someone gets it!
 
From the NTSB:
************************************************** **********

NTSB ADVISORY

************************************************** **********



National Transportation Safety Board

Washington, DC 20594



October 26, 2009

************************************************** **********



NTSB ISSUES UPDATE ON ITS INVESTIGATION OF FLIGHT 188 THAT

OVERFLEW INTENDED MINNEAPOLIS AIRPORT





************************************************** **********

In its continuing investigation of an Airbus A320 that

overflew the Minneapolis-St Paul International/Wold-

Chamberlain Airport (MSP), the National Transportation

Safety Board has developed the following factual

information: On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, at 5:56 pm

mountain daylight time, an Airbus A320, operating as

Northwest Airlines (NWA) flight 188, became a NORDO (no

radio communications) flight at 37,000 feet. The flight was

operating as a Part 121 flight from San Diego International

Airport, San Diego, California (SAN) to MSP with 144

passengers, 2 pilots and 3 flight attendants.



Both pilots were interviewed separately by NTSB

investigators yesterday in Minnesota. The following is an

overview of the interviews:



* The first officer and the captain were interviewed for

over 5 hours combined.

* The Captain, 53 years old, was hired in 1985. His

total flight time is about 20,000 hours, about 10,000

hours of A-320 time of which about 7,000 was as pilot

in command.

* The First Officer, 54 years old, was hired in 1997.

His total flight time is about 11,000 hours, and has

about 5,000 hours on the A-320.

* Both pilots said they had never had an accident,

incident or violation.

* Neither pilot reported any ongoing medical conditions.

* Both pilots stated that they were not fatigued. They

were both commuters, but they had a 19-hour layover in

San Diego just prior to the incident flight. Both said

they did not fall asleep or doze during the flight.

* Both said there was no heated argument.

* Both stated there was a distraction in the cockpit.

The pilots said there was a concentrated period of

discussion where they did not monitor the airplane or

calls from ATC even though both stated they heard

conversation on the radio. Also, neither pilot noticed

messages that were sent by company dispatchers. They

were discussing the new monthly crew flight scheduling

system that was now in place as a result of the

merger. The discussion began at cruise altitude.

* Both said they lost track of time.

* Each pilot accessed and used his personal laptop

computer while they discussed the airline crew flight

scheduling procedure. The first officer, who was more

familiar with the procedure was providing instruction

to the captain. The use of personal computers on the

flight deck is prohibited by company policy.

* Neither pilot was aware of the airplane's position

until a flight attendant called about 5 minutes before

they were scheduled to land and asked what was their

estimated time of arrival (ETA). The captain said, at

that point, he looked at his primary flight display

for an ETA and realized that they had passed MSP. They

made contact with ATC and were given vectors back to

MSP.

* At cruise altitude - the pilots stated they were using

cockpit speakers to listen to radio communications,

not their headsets.

* When asked by ATC what the problem was, they replied

"just cockpit distraction" and "dealing with company

issues".

* Both pilots said there are no procedures for the

flight attendants to check on the pilots during

flight.



The Safety Board is interviewing the flight attendants and

other company personnel today. Air traffic control

communications have been obtained and are being analyzed.

Preliminary data from the cockpit voice recorder (CVR)

revealed the following:



* The CVR recording was 1/2 hour in length.

* The cockpit area microphone channel was not working

during this recording. However, the crew's headset

microphones recorded their conversations.

* The CVR recording began during final approach, and

continued while the aircraft was at the gate.

* During the hours immediately following the incident

flight, routine aircraft maintenance provided power to

the CVR for a few minutes on several occasions, likely

recording over several minutes of the flight.



The FDR captured the entire flight which contained several

hundred aircraft parameters including the portion of flight

where there was no radio communication from the flight

crew. Investigators are examining the recorded parameters

to see if any information regarding crew activity during the

portion of flight where radio contact was lost can be

obtained.



The Safety Board's investigation continues.



###



NTSB Media Contact: Keith Holloway, (202) 314-6100

hollowk@ntsb.gov


Where is the final report? Have you seen it? I doubt it, because it doesn't exist yet, and it won't for quite some time. These pilots are being tried in the media with leaked information that is supposed to be confidential. I find the whole thing absolutely despicable.

The above is not a final report, but it is an official report from the NTSB containing statements given to the NTSB, isn't it? That's what I'm basing my opinions on.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Ok again the momentary lapse I was refering to is the lapse in judgment towards violating a SOP/FOM....though I was pretty clear

OK, but Nigel. . .you're truly stretching the definition of momentary lapse of judgement.

Forget the doctor analogy. Let's stretch is a bit further. For example, a "momentary" lapse of judgement is a married man hugging a woman not his wife, then while looking into her eyes feeling that surge of passion of wanting her, planting a kiss. That's momentary. . .at least for me.

. . .and you wish to compare "momentary" with that same scenario extending from the kiss to perhaps him renting a motel for an hour or jumping into the backseat of a car and "getting your groove on?"

OK, if you say so. . .
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

OK, but Nigel. . .you're truly stretching the definition of momentary lapse of judgement.

Forget the doctor analogy. Let's stretch is a bit further. For example, a "momentary" lapse of judgement is a married man hugging a woman not his wife, then while looking into her eyes feeling that surge of passion of wanting her, planting a kiss. That's momentary. . .at least for me.

. . .and you wish to compare "momentary" with that same scenario extending from the kiss to perhaps him renting a motel for an hour or jumping into the backseat of a car and "getting your groove on?"

OK, if you say so. . .
Ok again the momentary lapse I was refering to is the lapse in judgment towards violating a SOP/FOM....though I was pretty clear
No "momentary lapse" refers to pulling out a laptop in violation of an SOP we all know but might not always think about while in cruise................
and once again, I am not saying that they didnt (6th letter of the alphabet)-up bigtime,

Ok lets try this again one more time.

Scenario: you have 10000 hrs never made a blunder in your career or at least never been violated. You know that opening a laptop in cruise is a violation of the FOM. But it is one of thousands of rules you have to remember everyday. You are there in the seat of 188 and are discussing the new bid. You are confused about something in the process. Your crew mate says hey I can show you this, and pulls out his laptop. You get engrossed in a long discussion about how it works and will affect you guys. Now what caused you to think about breaking an SOP, its simple really, you had a momentary lapse of judgment towards opening the laptop in flight and how that might lead to a chain of events that could ultimately get you violated. We all make small lapses in procedure everyday that might not be a big deal by themselves, but any one of us could have them start a chain of events that ultimately could lead to us having a similar incident, do you not agree? They didn't set out to do this that day, it all happened because of a chain of events that started with a simple Momentary lapse of judgment.

As to why they let it last as long as it did I cannot speculate, but I think we all can agree that the first link in any chain of events is usually a small one.

:sitaware:Oh and for the record, I would rather deal with the CP and FAA and NTSB, than my wife if I kissed another women in front of her.....:rotfl:
 
It doesn't matter what they were doing really. Whatever it was, it wasn't the right thing and action should have been taken. Im just glad that 2 other pilots will get the chance to prove that they want the job, assuming they don't have sex with eachother also!:rotfl:
 
For example, a "momentary" lapse of judgement is a married man hugging a woman not his wife, then while looking into her eyes feeling that surge of passion of wanting her, planting a kiss. That's momentary. . .at least for me.

HAVE YOU BEEN TALKING TO MY WIFE????? :drool:
 
I'm hearing that the information released (at least part of it) came from ASRS reports?

That's disconcerting, to say the least. I thought the information that was released came from in-person interviews....

I still think they did something incredibly stupid, but I'm wondering now where this information is coming from.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Ok lets try this again one more time.

Scenario: you have 10000 hrs never made a blunder in your career or at least never been violated. You know that opening a laptop in cruise is a violation of the FOM. But it is one of thousands of rules you have to remember everyday. You are there in the seat of 188 and are discussing the new bid. You are confused about something in the process. Your crew mate says hey I can show you this, and pulls out his laptop. You get engrossed in a long discussion about how it works and will affect you guys. Now what caused you to think about breaking an SOP, its simple really, you had a momentary lapse of judgment towards opening the laptop in flight and how that might lead to a chain of events that could ultimately get you violated. We all make small lapses in procedure everyday that might not be a big deal by themselves, but any one of us could have them start a chain of events that ultimately could lead to us having a similar incident, do you not agree? They didn't set out to do this that day, it all happened because of a chain of events that started with a simple Momentary lapse of judgment.

As to why they let it last as long as it did I cannot speculate, but I think we all can agree that the first link in any chain of events is usually a small one.

:sitaware:Oh and for the record, I would rather deal with the CP and FAA and NTSB, than my wife if I kissed another women in front of her.....:rotfl:

Agreed! :D
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

No man gets a third chance but everyman deserves a second one with the proper contrition. MY OPINION...not the rule

They were given a second chance! Not only the pilots... but the passengers too. (the second chance is called LIFE)


At the time the probably didn't give it a conscious thought, MY OPINION...not the rule

I couldn't agree with you more!!! (that is if you agree that SLEEPING is not a conscious state)



For you guys that fly everyday, on your next short flight try to forget about your destination, the route progress, weather along route, radio communications. Try it. Try to completely forget about all that...(while being conscious).......let me know if you can.
And by the way, try to make your crewmate do the same thing at the same time....

Who are we kidding???????
Gosh... who doesn't believe in miracles after this one?





D
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

They were given a second chance! Not only the pilots... but the passengers too. (the second chance is called LIFE)




I couldn't agree with you more!!! (that is if you agree that SLEEPING is not a conscious state)



For you guys that fly everyday, on your next short flight try to forget about your destination, the route progress, weather along route, radio communications. Try it. Try to completely forget about all that...(while being conscious).......let me know if you can.
And by the way, try to make your crewmate do the same thing at the same time....

Who are we kidding???????
Gosh... who doesn't believe in miracles after this one?





D

Easy - just turn the radio down, and the screens off.
 
Back
Top