Northwest Overshoot / Cert Action....

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Gonzo said:
Wow you just proved you know very little about 121 flying. The crew had been up for over 12 hours and got a sidestep inside the FAF to an unlit runway with no ILS. I could see myself making the same mistake.
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You caught me....I will refrain from posting when my opinion is not yours..ie wrong...:dunno:


Gonzo said:
The runway they where sidestepping too and taxiway didn't have the light on. The ILS to the runway was also not on.
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Sooooo...uhmmm you would what accept that sidestep then...??? Sorry I could see myself saying unable, especially inside the FAF. I assume your arguing that the runway lights weren't on????
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Nigel Croker said:
Sooooo...uhmmm you would what accept that sidestep then...??? Sorry I could see myself saying unable, especially inside the FAF. I assume your arguing that the runway lights weren't on????
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The facts are the light were off on the runway and the ILS was not on. The crew had been flying the whole flight(12 hours) as a two man crew. A CA on OE. Like I said I could see myself making this mistake.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Ok to those who obviously dont know me, Let me introduce myself. Its obvious you are protective of each other, and thats good. I am 40, served honorably in the US Navy. I am furloughed 121 and working 135 presently. I'm brusque, and opinionated, and never back down, although I will accept your right to have a differing opinion, as long as you allow me the same benefit....hope you can handle me...:D
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Nigel Croker said:
Sooooo...uhmmm you would what accept that sidestep then...??? Sorry I could see myself saying unable, especially inside the FAF. I assume your arguing that the runway lights weren't on????
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Severe fatigue is a dangerous thing buddy. Proper decision making is the first thing that goes. My take is that the incident is akin to them beginning to start drinking six hours into the flight. Be very careful when throwing other pilots under the bus without any facts to back it up.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Gonzo said:
The facts are the light were off on the runway and the ILS was not on. The crew had been flying the whole flight(12 hours) as a two man crew. A CA on OE. Like I said I could see myself making this mistake.
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I actually agree both of these instances could have happened to any of us on an off day. Remain vigilant at all times... I still contend that all 4 of these pilots deserve some time off and a suspension, but I think they are all redeemable, and should be allowed back after some time in the penalty box and some retraining...I believe they would be the most likely to never majke the same mistake again. But to say the NW crew deserves a harsher punishment than the Delta crew is just wrong in my opinion....
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Capt. Caucasian said:
Severe fatigue is a dangerous thing buddy. Proper decision making is the first thing that goes. My take is that the incident is akin to them beginning to start drinking six hours into the flight. Be very careful when throwing other pilots under the bus without any facts to back it up.
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I am not throwing them under the bus, as a matter of fact in previous statements of mine lets be clear , I think both crews deserve a second chance, but to say only the delta taxiway crew does because the taxiway landing was somehow acceptable, is just wrong, and that is what I am arguing here...what part of that do you not get, now I'm getting a bit frustrated, I dont think your reading everthing, just bits and pieces

And I agree fatigue is definatly responsable for the ATL incident, but does not give that crew a free pass, but neither crew needs full revocation either.....These instances are equal in my book, both potentially very dangerous, yet, both lucky by the grace of God. Punish and forgive, lest we be the one to make the next mistake, am I clear now, or is it pile on the new guy day...
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

KTRN said:
Good point. How could these pilots not differentiate the runway lights from the taxiway lights? These incidents sure are tarnishing DAL image which is kinda sad d/t there's plenty of competent pilots who fly for them.
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I disagree. I think DAL will be fine. In regards to the Airbus incident. Im sure the pilots involved are all competent professionals who just made an extremely poor choice. I highly doubt they were oblivious to safety. If they say safety wasn't compromised then I believe them. I also dont believe they are the only airline pilots to open a laptop at 37,000 feet in the cockpit. They screwed up and got caught.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Nigel Croker said:
I am not throwing them under the bus, as a matter of fact in previous statements of mine lets be clear , I think both crews deserve a second chance, but to say only the delta taxiway crew does because the taxiway landing was somehow acceptable, is just wrong, and that is what I am arguing here...what part of that do you not get, now I'm getting a bit frustrated, I dont think your reading everthing, just bits and pieces

And I agree fatigue is definatly responsable for the ATL incident, but does not give that crew a free pass, but neither crew needs full revocation either.....These instances are equal in my book, both potentially very dangerous, yet, both lucky by the grace of God. Punish and forgive, lest we be the one to make the next mistake, am I clear now, or is it pile on the new guy day...
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I respect your opinion. I don't agree with it, but I do certainly respect it. :)

And, as Jim said earlier, welcome to JC. We are happy to have participants from all facets & levels of aviation here. I hope you stick around. We are a kinder, gentler aviation forum, where you won't see the personal attacks & namecalling that are prevalent elsewhere.

I'm sorry for your furlough. I'm twice furloughed (AA) myself, and have a huge soft spot for furloughees.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Nigel Croker said:
Punish and forgive, lest we be the one to make the next mistake, am I clear now, or is it pile on the new guy day...
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What is punishment going to solve? Will it make the world safer? Was it willful disregarding of the regs/limitations? Or, was it an ACCIDENT? See, there is the key word right there.

Please, don't ever try to get into management (or the Union). We don't need more CPs that go off half-cocked on disciplinary frenzies. We are not like that here at Delta.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

MQAAord said:
I respect your opinion. I don't agree with it, but I do certainly respect it. :)

And, as Jim said earlier, welcome to JC. We are happy to have participants from all facets & levels of aviation here. I hope you stick around. We are a kinder, gentler aviation forum, where you won't see the personal attacks & namecalling that are prevalent elsewhere.

I'm sorry for your furlough. I'm twice furloughed (AA) myself, and have a huge soft spot for furloughees.
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Thank you, Thats kind of why I joined, I got tired of garbage on other sites. I look foward to the comraderie with my fellow colleagues. I really am a little bit gentler than I came across in my first response, although I bark, I dont bite, but I have been known to nibble a little....:laff:
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Capt. Caucasian said:
What is punishment going to solve? Will it make the world safer? Was it willful disregarding of the regs/limitations? Or, was it an ACCIDENT? See, there is the key word right there.

Please, don't ever try to get into management (or the Union). We don't need more CPs that go off half-cocked on disciplinary frenzies. We are not like that here at Delta.
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No, but being responsible for the actions you took, and facing the consequences like a man with integrity, are what I look for. (So what do you propose, look the other way? Anyone who doesn't is half cocked?)

I can respect the NW crew because they have accepted the consequences. But I do also believe in second chances, and that is why I say temper punishment with fairness, for either of these crews. You came across like you are one of those, ( no harm, if no one saw it then lets cover it up) kinda guys, and that my friend scares me. Commercial Aviation requires the Book to be followed, if not there are consequences...dont see how I'm the bad guy for saying Punish then forgive and let them back in the air...
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Nigel Croker said:
No, but being responsible for the actions you took, and facing the consequences like a man with integrity, are what I look for. (So what do you propose, look the other way? Anyone who doesn't is half cocked?)

I can respect the NW crew because they have accepted the consequences. But I do also believe in second chances, and that is why I say temper punishment with fairness, for either of these crews. And I was very involved with the IBT before my furlough, and will be again for the record. (since I was called out for being careful about peoples backgrounds when you dont know them). You came across like you are one of those, ( no harm, if no one saw it then lets cover it up) kinda guys, and that my friend scares me. Commercial Aviation requires the Book to be followed, if not there are consequences...dont see how I'm the bad guy for saying Punish then forgive and let them back in the air...
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:yeahthat:

. . .and as a layperson, wrong is wrong in both situations even with the outcome of both truly being, in the eyes of your aviators, a non-event not worth of the media attention it drew. Corrective action/punitive action is appropriate. Where is truly agree with both aspects is the fact one crew was a conscious effort to violate company/FAA policy where the other was the result of significant "less than nominal" factors inputted into their approach and landing phase of flight. Do they deserve/merit the same "punitive" action as it relates to intent or the fact they committed an infraction? Seems rhetorical.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Slugger said:
They can apply for airman certificates one year from today.

Reading the letters the FAA sent to them gets me angry for some reason.

http://stmedia.startribune.com/docu...ised.pdf?elr=KArks:DCiUHc3E7_V_nDaycUiacyKUUr

http://stmedia.startribune.com/documents/cole+emor_Revised.pdf?elr=KArks:DCiUHc3E7_V_nDaycUiacyKUUr
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What gets me mad about this one is that the Star Tribune got a hold of these letters under FOIA and plastered it all over the media. In my opinion, a letter like this, while you CAN'T get around FOIA with it, should be a private matter.

What really gets me about this situation are the comments I've seen from the Chicago Tribune public. There seems to be LOTS of people convinced that the two pilots were having sex in the cockpit, or that they were watching porn on their laptops. I don't understand why this would be a more understandable and acceptable excuse than falling asleep or what they actually claimed that they were doing.

I've seen comments from readers who claim that they will never fly again because of this incident. But then, they're probably the same ones that said the same thing right after 9/11 and then a year later is on a 737 to Toledo for a business trip. A year from now, this whole thing will most likely be forgotten by the public. What makes me angry is that these two have been raked over the coals in the interest of boosting ratings and selling newspapers. They made a huge mistake, but my sympathy goes out to them nonetheless.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

CAP_Flyer said:
What gets me mad about this one is that the Star Tribune got a hold of these letters under FOIA and plastered it all over the media. In my opinion, a letter like this, while you CAN'T get around FOIA with it, should be a private matter.

What really gets me about this situation are the comments I've seen from the Chicago Tribune public. There seems to be LOTS of people convinced that the two pilots were having sex in the cockpit, or that they were watching porn on their laptops. I don't understand why this would be a more understandable and acceptable excuse than falling asleep or what they actually claimed that they were doing.

I've seen comments from readers who claim that they will never fly again because of this incident. But then, they're probably the same ones that said the same thing right after 9/11 and then a year later is on a 737 to Toledo for a business trip. A year from now, this whole thing will most likely be forgotten by the public. What makes me angry is that these two have been raked over the coals in the interest of boosting ratings and selling newspapers. They made a huge mistake, but my sympathy goes out to them nonetheless.
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Remember, FOIA is just like the freedom of speech. It's a right, but some people abuse it, not fully understanding the consequences. I believe in scripture it says "all things are free, but not all things are convenient".
 
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