Northwest Overshoot / Cert Action....

[Orange Anchor]

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

How epic would it have been if the pilot's already had the ASAP reports filled out from in the air when they touched down. I'm assuming the plane has WIFI if they were on their online scheduling system.

ASAPs and NASA ASRSs don't do squat in the case of a willful violation.

 

[Nigel Croker]

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

I can understand wanting to be somewhat sympathetic but, but whathever else someone might say in their favor, 51 minutes is a heck of a "momentary lapse."

And I can not argue that, I guess what it comes down to is I tend to believe in the redeemability of some people....

 

[pullup]

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Sorry, I think you are a bit melodramatic. The NW 188 crew did willfully violate a reg, but to say it was deliberately blowing off flying is a stretch, they had a momentary lapse in judgment, most likely because of complacency. In the grand scheme they were most likely in a discussion and one said to the other here let me show you. At the time the probably didnt give it a conscious thought, any more than if you were to pull out some pics on your I- phone to show a crewmwmber during cruise ( which like it or not is just as much a violation of FOM). They got distracted period. I have said they deserve termination, and they deserve a 180 day cert suspension, but I think revocation is too much, this was a first time offense by all accounts, and I'm sure these guys could learn from their lapse in judgment, but to kick 30000hrs of experience with no other violations out of the flightdeck would be wrong. And yes I am a Regional Pilot (who has been lambasted for 10 months about how we are dangerous because we fly with less experience) saying this. No man gets a third chance but everyman deserves a second one with the proper contrition. However all of this is simply MY OPINION...not the rule

Momentary equals 91 minutes? So they didn't notice no calls from ATC? They didn't notice no decent instructions? They didn't notice flying over MSP? They didn't notice the flight was unusually long? They didn't notice they were lower on fuel then they should have been? They didn't notice all the cows in Wisconsin?

No, this was not a momentary lapse, this was willful disregard whether or not they knew it. I don't believe they intended to overfly the airport, but it did happen. Just because nothing bad came about doesn't limit the severity of the incident.

Think about what if a lowly regional pilot (such as yourself) overflew Buffalo and continued on into Canada while playing on their laptop? Think the crap wouldn't hit the fan and you wouldn't have your certs revoked? Hell they FAA probably would have Kurt Russel'd someone onto your plane and revoked them before you even landed.

Bottom line, they screwed up BIG TIME. The FAA needed to show their pimp stick and they did. Doug says they have a bad pilot matrix, apparently the squares lined up to equal cert revocation. Sucks to be them but they knew the rules and consequences before they lined up to take off.

 

[Nigel Croker]

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Momentary equals 91 minutes? So they didn't notice no calls from ATC? They didn't notice no decent instructions? They didn't notice flying over MSP? They didn't notice the flight was unusually long? They didn't notice they were lower on fuel then they should have been? They didn't notice all the cows in Wisconsin?

No, this was not a momentary lapse, this was willful disregard whether or not they knew it. I don't believe they intended to overfly the airport, but it did happen. Just because nothing bad came about doesn't limit the severity of the incident.

Think about what if a lowly regional pilot (such as yourself) overflew Buffalo and continued on into Canada while playing on their laptop? Think the crap wouldn't hit the fan and you wouldn't have your certs revoked? Hell they FAA probably would have Kurt Russel'd someone onto your plane and revoked them before you even landed.

Bottom line, they screwed up BIG TIME. The FAA needed to show their pimp stick and they did. Doug says they have a bad pilot matrix, apparently the squares lined up to equal cert revocation. Sucks to be them but they knew the rules and consequences before they lined up to take off.

No "momentary lapse" refers to pulling out a laptop in violation of an SOP we all know but might not always think about while in cruise................
and once again, I am not saying that they didnt (6th letter of the alphabet)-up bigtime, this whole conversation started with the argument that the taxiway landing was somehow not as bad as this, and I contend they are both equally bad, but all 4 crew members (assuming they havnt had any serious issues before thus indicating a pattern) are redeemable, again I believe both crews deserve suspension, but not revocation, that is all Ive said over and over, I'm by no means advocating a free pass

 

[dcramer16]

Hey Nigel, welcome to JC! I, for one believe your views are spot on, and somewhat refreshing. Thanks for your contributions.

 

[Nigel Croker]

Hey Nigel, welcome to JC! I, for one believe your views are spot on, and somewhat refreshing. Thanks for your contributions.

Thanks, nice to meet you, its been a pleasure debating with my colleagues on a forumn that people dont resort to petty childish namecalling, I am glad I found JC.

 

[pullup]

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

No "momentary lapse" refers to pulling out a laptop in violation of an SOP we all know but might not always think about while in cruise................
and once again, I am not saying that they didnt (6th letter of the alphabet)-up bigtime, this whole conversation started with the argument that the taxiway landing was somehow not as bad as this, and I contend they are both equally bad, but all 4 crew members (assuming they havnt had any serious issues before thus indicating a pattern) are redeemable, again I believe both crews deserve suspension, but not revocation, that is all Ive said over and over, I'm by no means advocating a free pass

I know what you are advocating, what I am saying is that they screwed up so bad that there is no way they should get a suspension. A lawyer or doctor who screwed up like this and displayed this much unprofessional-ism would have their licenses revoked also.

Picture a doctor having open heart or brain surgery lolly-gaging on the computer for 90 minutes and then going back, finishing the surgery up and the patient is fine. He would be de-licensed in a heartbeat. No one was lost, everything was fine in the end but the lack of professionalism is appaling.

If the pilots had flipped the laptop on, missed a call or two and realized their mistake...sure a suspension would be fine. Not for this gross negligence though.

 

[MQAAord]

Thanks, Nice to meet you, its been a pleasure debating with my coleagues on a forumn that people dont resort to petty childish namecalling, I am glad I found JC.

You're a poopyhead!

There. I called you a name. :beer:

Seriously, we really do keep the kaboosh (I really have no idea how to spell that) on the attacks & namecalling here. Many of our members here are refugees from other sites who tired of dealing with the online "personas" so present on other sites and the attitudes & attacks that go along with it.

We're about paying it forward, education, information, and socialization.

 

[Nigel Croker]

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

I know what you are advocating, what I am saying is that they screwed up so bad that there is no way they should get a suspension. A lawyer or doctor who screwed up like this and displayed this much unprofessional-ism would have their licenses revoked also.

Picture a doctor having open heart or brain surgery lolly-gaging on the computer for 90 minutes and then going back, finishing the surgery up and the patient is fine. He would be de-licensed in a heartbeat. No one was lost, everything was fine in the end but the lack of professionalism is appaling.

If the pilots had flipped the laptop on, missed a call or two and realized their mistake...sure a suspension would be fine. Not for this gross negligence though.

I can respect your point and even understand your reasoning, I do disagree but thanks for your very valid take on this unfortunate incident. In the end after the debate I hope we all learn to keep our guard up and maintain your professionalism at all times, we all have way too much invested in this industry to lose it in a quick loss of SA towards our careers. Stay vigilent my fellow crewmembers

 

[dcramer16]

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

I know what you are advocating, what I am saying is that they screwed up so bad that there is no way they should get a suspension. A lawyer or doctor who screwed up like this and displayed this much unprofessional-ism would have their licenses revoked also.

Picture a doctor having open heart or brain surgery lolly-gaging on the computer for 90 minutes and then going back, finishing the surgery up and the patient is fine. He would be de-licensed in a heartbeat. No one was lost, everything was fine in the end but the lack of professionalism is appaling.

If the pilots had flipped the laptop on, missed a call or two and realized their mistake...sure a suspension would be fine. Not for this gross negligence though.

Hmmmm. I find your Doctor analogy interesting, not really applicable though.

 

[WestIndian425]

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

I can respect your point and even understand your reasoning, I do disagree but thanks for your very valid take on this unfortunate incident. In the end after the debate I hope we all learn to keep our guard up and maintain your professionalism at all times, we all have way too much invested in this industry to loss it in a quick loss of SA towards our careers. Stay vigilent my fellow crewmembers

And there you have it...we all shake hands and drink a Shirley Temple.

 

[Nigel Croker]

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

And there you have it...we all shake hands and drink a Shirley Temple.

Wimp.......give me a Coor's.....:beer: and a high five.....

 

[tonyw]

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Sorry, I think you are a bit melodramatic. The NW 188 crew did willfully violate a reg, but to say it was deliberately blowing off flying is a stretch, they had a momentary lapse in judgment, most likely because of complacency.

A momentary lapse of judgment would be something that lasts for a minute or two.

Not an hour.

Whipping out your cell and showing someone a picture, while questionable -- although if your phone is in airplane mode, is it prohibited? -- is one thing.

Firing up your laptop and using it for an hour when you're supposed to be flying is another.

 

[primate]

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

It was 2 old guys trying to use a laptop. Have you ever tried to teach your parents to surf the web?

Damnit, just spewed half my beer, that is hilarious. :laff:

 

[JoelT]

Doug,

Where is that post you made referencing our chat in the crew lounge a couple of months ago?

 

[Nigel Croker]

You're a poopyhead!

There. I called you a name. :beer:

Seriously, we really do keep the kaboosh (I really have no idea how to spell that) on the attacks & namecalling here. Many of our members here are refugees from other sites who tired of dealing with the online "personas" so present on other sites and the attitudes & attacks that go along with it.

We're about paying it forward, education, information, and socialization.

Thats why I showed up....of course only time will tell if thats a good thing....:insane: and its KYBOSH..ok i actually made that up

 

[Nigel Croker]

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Sorry, I think you are a bit melodramatic. The NW 188 crew did willfully violate a reg, but to say it was deliberately blowing off flying is a stretch, they had a momentary lapse in judgment, most likely because of complacency.

A momentary lapse of judgment would be something that lasts for a minute or two.

Not an hour.

Whipping out your cell and showing someone a picture, while questionable -- although if your phone is in airplane mode, is it prohibited? -- is one thing.

Firing up your laptop and using it for an hour when you're supposed to be flying is another.

Ok again the momentary lapse I was refering to is the lapse in judgment towards violating a SOP/FOM....though I was pretty clear

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Here's another interesting item:

I've never sat up front in a "bus" so I don't know how loud the wind noise is in the cockpit. So if both pilots were are having a verbal discussion and then add whatever ambiant background noise in the cockpit to that; could they hear the radios good enough to diferentiate the various radio traffic? They'll be really lucky if there isn't any certificate action taken against them by the FAA on top of what Delta will do to them for breaking company policy.

Most companies allow you take your headset off and use the speakers above 18K. It can be done in a 727, which is a loud plane, if you turn them loud enough. It is easier to use a headset though...

You're always better off telling the truth.

Yes they are. If they get caught lying you can bet they FAA and Company will come down even harder.

 

[hudson26]

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

There seems to be LOTS of people convinced that the two pilots were having sex in the cockpit,

Can't possibly be true. That would only account for 5 minutes, not over an hour. Ha ha ha ah ha ha sorry... couldn't pass that one up.

 

[derg]

You're a poopyhead!

There. I called you a name. :beer:

Seriously, we really do keep the kaboosh (I really have no idea how to spell that) on the attacks & namecalling here. Many of our members here are refugees from other sites who tired of dealing with the online "personas" so present on other sites and the attitudes & attacks that go along with it.

We're about paying it forward, education, information, and socialization.

What she said!

I figure if I don't want to read it, you guys don't want to read it, and internet needs yet another Type-A driven "my schwartz is bigger than your schwartz" aviation forum like a hole in the head.