Northwest Overshoot / Cert Action....

Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

Nihon_Ni said:
You can't judge the risk of an event by the outcome of a single event. My uncle survived the Battle of Okinawa, did that make it "safe"? Lots of units took over 100% casualties (when including replacements), my uncle was just lucky. Or blessed.

Like it or not, aviation is a world where you first mistake is often your last mistake. These guys should be happy that all their families have to worry about is them loosing the certificates and jobs. It very easily could have ended a whole lot worse for many, many people.
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While what you say is true, I highly doubt they are thinking about the joys of at least having their families and it could have been worse....to them this is the worst.
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

Buzo said:
Normally NASA or ASAP will not help in this case. They do not include willful or intentional violation of the regs.
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100% Correct.

When I was a CFI, many other CFI's were teaching that you can go up, do pretty much whatever you wanted to do as long as you filled a NASA ASRS form out at the conclusion.

Not true at all.

The perception is that the NASA ASRS is like a big stinky clove of garlic to the FAA's Count "Ah'mo... Ah'mo... Ah'mo come for y'alls tickets" Dracula, but it certainly is not.

Vlad the Impaler will always serve as Vlad the Impaler. Now if it was a unintentional mistake...

(How's that for a Halloween twist?)
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

I wonder how much different things might be if Sully had done this.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Guy said:
I wonder how much different things might be if Sully had done this.
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He was former military. He couldn't have done this.

*insert stirring pot smiley*

:bandit:

(Chill mil guys...I'z just playin. :beer:)

-mini
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

In both cases, did the crew not file an ASAP? I am wondering how the FAA, or the company is taking any action before the ERC has reviewed it?
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

Doug Taylor said:
100% Correct.

When I was a CFI, many other CFI's were teaching that you can go up, do pretty much whatever you wanted to do as long as you filled a NASA ASRS form out at the conclusion.

Not true at all.

The perception is that the NASA ASRS is like a big stinky clove of garlic to the FAA's Count "Ah'mo... Ah'mo... Ah'mo come for y'alls tickets" Dracula, but it certainly is not.

Vlad the Impaler will always serve as Vlad the Impaler. Now if it was a unintentional mistake...

(How's that for a Halloween twist?)
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True, but can that be determined before the ERC hearing?
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Nigel Croker said:
But to say the NW crew deserves a harsher punishment than the Delta crew is just wrong in my opinion....
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Are you serious?

One situation was a mistake. They landed on a taxiway after a 12 hour flight. They were tired, and they made a mistake.

The other situation was a DELIBERATE act where they blew off flying so that they could figure out how to work their scheduling program. And this is what they themselves said, so there's no giving them the benefit of the doubt.

It's like the difference between accidentally running over the neighbor's dog and putting dog biscuits in front of your car and flooring the accelerator.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

How epic would it have been if the pilot's already had the ASAP reports filled out from in the air when they touched down. I'm assuming the plane has WIFI if they were on their online scheduling system.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

jhugz said:
How epic would it have been if the pilot's already had the ASAP reports filled out from in the air when they touched down. I'm assuming the plane has WIFI if they were on their online scheduling system.
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Delta North planes don't have Wifi yet, so that goes in the no catagory.
 
Buzo said:
Normally NASA or ASAP will not help in this case. They do not include willful or intentional violation of the regs.
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This is something that the ASAP event review committee has to sit down and discuss. To not include, or include, the ASAP report into the program is something that they themselves must determine.

I don't know which day this week the flight safety debriefing of this event took place. It could have been the morning/afternoon of the day that the FAA later announced that they would take certificate action. I think that is the only way this could have been done already.

The guy that used to be the ERC chair would have probably not agreed that this was intentional disregard for flight safety. The landing at Ellsworth AFB debacle was a humongous heated debate within the NWA safety department for similar reasons as this could turn out to be. I would agree this this is not intentional disregard for flight safety. Nobody in their right mind would have intended to blow by the destination. The things they did to occupy their mind in times of quiet cruise flight may not have been a good choice but I do not see these pilots as intentionally doing anything dangerous.
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

Nick said:
This is something that the ASAP event review committee has to sit down and discuss. To not include, or include, the ASAP report into the program is something that they themselves must determine.

I don't know which day this week the flight safety debriefing of this event took place. It could have been the morning/afternoon of the day that the FAA later announced that they would take certificate action. I think that is the only way this could have been done already.

The guy that used to be the ERC chair would have probably not agreed that this was intentional disregard for flight safety. The landing at Ellsworth AFB debacle was a humongous heated debate within the NWA safety department for similar reasons as this could turn out to be. I would agree this this is not intentional disregard for flight safety. Nobody in their right mind would have intended to blow by the destination. The things they did to occupy their mind in times of quiet cruise flight may not have been a good choice but I do not see these pilots as intentionally doing anything dangerous.
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But, Nick...if ATC is trying to get a hold of you and you're not paying attention, even if you're having a discussion, don't you think that's careless? Missing a few calls is one thing...missing contact for over an hour is something else.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

minitour said:
Wow. That hardly seems like a huge hurdle.

Of course, getting someone to hire you...................

-mini
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well, if you know the right people, I'd be willing to bet it wouldnt be that hard to find a job.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

tonyw said:
Are you serious?

One situation was a mistake. They landed on a taxiway after a 12 hour flight. They were tired, and they made a mistake.

The other situation was a DELIBERATE act where they blew off flying so that they could figure out how to work their scheduling program. And this is what they themselves said, so there's no giving them the benefit of the doubt.
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Sorry, I think you are a bit melodramatic. The NW 188 crew did willfully violate a reg, but to say it was deliberately blowing off flying is a stretch, they had a momentary lapse in judgment, most likely because of complacency. In the grand scheme they were most likely in a discussion and one said to the other here let me show you. At the time the probably didnt give it a conscious thought, any more than if you were to pull out some pics on your I- phone to show a crewmwmber during cruise ( which like it or not is just as much a violation of FOM). They got distracted period. I have said they deserve termination, and they deserve a 180 day cert suspension, but I think revocation is too much, this was a first time offense by all accounts, and I'm sure these guys could learn from their lapse in judgment, but to kick 30000hrs of experience with no other violations out of the flightdeck would be wrong. And yes I am a Regional Pilot (who has been lambasted for 10 months about how we are dangerous because we fly with less experience) saying this. No man gets a third chance but everyman deserves a second one with the proper contrition. However all of this is simply MY OPINION...not the rule
 
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