National Seniority List

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Thanks, I figured you would chime in.

So let's say Pinnacle pilots (since they seem to be the next up for this) just cannot get what they want from the company in contract negotiations. Clearly they are justified in asking for the improvements they are since they are working under a contract that, if I remember correctly, was signed in 1999. What would it take, then, for every other airline in the country to back them up and go on strike, if the Pinnacle pilot group themselves got to the point of being able to strike? Same goes for other examples, like CAL, Mesa, and the rest of the airlines that are in negotiations.
 
It's actually pretty simple. If the NMB were to release the Pinnacle pilots in your example, then the union would be able to call a secondary boycott of any other group of ALPA pilots. When Captain Woerth was considering it, he was only going to call for the code-share partner airlines to participate (PCL, MSA, and NWA in that case), but theoretically it could be any or all of the other ALPA units.

The problem with this is the repercussions afterwards. How would future NMBs react if they know that a secondary boycott is a likely situation if they give a pilot group a release? Right now they only expect the specific pilot group to strike, but what will they do if they expect all ALPA pilots to walk out en mass? It might make it completely impossible to get a release under any circumstances, because I doubt any NMB would like to be responsible for shutting down the entire aviation industry. So, it's basically a so-called "nuclear option." You only use it as a last resort, one time shot. That's why Captain Woerth was considering it for Mesaba. If Mesaba's management had been successful in achieving what they wanted out of bankruptcy, Mesaba copilots would have been making only $12,000/yr. That would have lead to some massive concessions from every regional to remain "competitive." It was an unacceptable scenario, so a "nuclear option" was a possibility. Barring those sorts of circumstances, it's not very useful to use a large-scale secondary boycott under current RLA law. The repercussions of probably losing any future releases would be too severe.
 
flywithUS said:
I personally think that a NSL would have too many problems for it to be a positive thing, thus I do not support it.

However, thinking out-loud here, how about a list that wouldn't put you ahead of another pilot seniority-wise, but would allow you to be paid the amount of years served under ALPA.

For example, say an airline went under. A pilot for that airline who has been a member of ALPA for 15 years gets hired by another airline. Under this scenario, the pilot would fall at the bottom of that specific airlines seniority list (upgrades, etc.) but would be paid as if he/she was a 15 year F/O.
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I guess I'm just not sure WHY an airline would hire someone as a first year FO and pay them as if they'd been working there 15 years, when they can hire equally qualified applicants for much less. An airline's cost of labor would go through the roof if they hired people that way. Would somebody please explain this to me? Just playing devil's advocate by looking at things from management's perspective--what's the VALUE to an airline of hiring a 15-year new FO versus hiring a 10-year new FO? You see, this is the built-in advantage of the junior pilot and thus why I see the NSL as ultimately self-defeating.
 
PCL_128 said:
An anti-union pilot shouldn't get a free ride home when they need it. Call it "childish" if you wish, but giving a free ride to an anti-union pilot is akin to handing a gun to someone trying to mug you.
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Short, sweet and to the point. Well said, PCL. And don't worry about those who view this as an "extremist" position. They're usually speaking from a postion that isn't threatened on a DAILY BASIS by lowlife non-Union clowns undercutting their contracts.

Perhaps someday the wheel will turn. It is often amusing to see guys who couldn't get hired way back when are now "high and mighty".
 
PCL_128 said:
Um, no. Don't think I ever said that. I'll refuse all anti-union pilots, however. But if you're a member in good standing of some union (with the exception of the GoJet IBT unit), then you'll get a ride from me.
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Your way makes no sense. If you're goal is 100% ALPA, then it's the anti-union guys you need to let on the jumpseat. They're the ones that you need to convince. Only letting the pro-union guys on is preaching to the choir.

By the way, I thought you said you weren't going to be posting anymore. Something about not liking censorship.
 
germb747 said:
I guess I'm just not sure WHY an airline would hire someone as a first year FO and pay them as if they'd been working there 15 years, when they can hire equally qualified applicants for much less. An airline's cost of labor would go through the roof if they hired people that way. Would somebody please explain this to me? Just playing devil's advocate by looking at things from management's perspective--what's the VALUE to an airline of hiring a 15-year new FO versus hiring a 10-year new FO? You see, this is the built-in advantage of the junior pilot and thus why I see the NSL as ultimately self-defeating.
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Your economic points are well taken, but intially, an NSL would ONLY apply to seniority list mergers.

Unless all the individual pilot unions merged and shifted the industry to an apprentice/journeyman system where all airlines would have to approach ONE union to hire airline pilots, there could never be the scenario you describe.
 
skydog said:
Your way makes no sense. If you're goal is 100% ALPA, then it's the anti-union guys you need to let on the jumpseat. They're the ones that you need to convince. Only letting the pro-union guys on is preaching to the choir.
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My jumpseat isn't a classroom. I'm not going to use it to try to teach people why ALPA is important. Besides, the anti-union pilots have already made up their minds. Most of them are beyond being reached. You can convince some newbies and even some older "on the fence" guys, but the guys that are flat-out anti-union are pretty much hopeless.

By the way, I thought you said you weren't going to be posting anymore. Something about not liking censorship.
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You missed later posts in that thread. I worked it out with Dough.
 
PCL_128 said:
My jumpseat isn't a classroom. I'm not going to use it to try to teach people why ALPA is important. Besides, the anti-union pilots have already made up their minds. Most of them are beyond being reached. You can convince some newbies and even some older "on the fence" guys, but the guys that are flat-out anti-union are pretty much hopeless.
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Man, you are quick on the draw. I just posted something like 2 minutes ago and you already have a response up.

It's no wonder you're a democrat. You have the classic liberal democrat attitude. You don't give your fellow pilots any credit. They're leaches and scumbags. They've already made up their minds. They can't possibly know what's good for themselves. Only you can show them the light. You're convinced that they don't know any better. But then you turn around and say the jumpseat is not a classroom, and you're not going to try and educate them.

So...they don't know what's best for themselves, and you're not going to teach them; how exactly do you expect to achieve your goals?

You are not going to get very far with your approach, for two reasons:

1) People don't don't like being bullied or dictated to; it just makes them dig in more.

2) People don't like being dismissed and discounted, which is what your pro-ALPA-no-room-for-anything-else stance does; it dismisses their ideas, their values, their opinions.

People DO, however, appreciate engaging in meaningful and intelligent exchange of ideas. Since non-union pilots don't frequent union halls, that pretty much leaves the jumpseat for that exchange to take place. Either that, or ALPA National needs to do some serious outreach to the non-union carriers out there.

Either way, the only way to strengthen ALPA is to encourage individual pilots do DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES that ALPA is the best way. An army of volunteers is much more effective than an army of conscripts.
 
skydog, you seem to have a problem understanding the difference between non-union and anti-union. There is a difference. A guy that's non-union but open-minded is completely different than a guy that just flat-out hates unions and refuses to be a part of the solution. Someone that's non-union but open-minded will get my jumpseat every time, and we can talk plenty about the importance of unions. But if I ask a non-union jumpseater what he thinks about unions and he goes into an anti-ALPA diatribe, then he's going to be looking for another ride home. I was an ALPA organizer, so I'm all about educating non-union pilots, but I'm not about getting into a contentious debate with some anti-union POS riding my jumpseat.
 
Excellent points, PCL. Especially the point about using the jumpseat as a "classroom". There is no reason for allowing someone to detract from the efficient operation of the airplane to "educate" them. I submit that becomes a distraction and, therefore, a safety hazard.

Non-Union and Anti-Union pilots should have ZERO expectation of being allowed a UNION negotiated privilege. After all, do they call ALPA Aeromedical and expect to be served? Of course not.

All pilot Unions help "jack the house" when it comes to pay and benefits. Therefore, ALL Union pilots are welcome to use the Union-negotiated jumpseat privilege. However, if you're non-Union or anti-Union, perhaps you should go ask your non-Union "brothers" for a ride to work.
 
Velocipede said:
Your economic points are well taken, but intially, an NSL would ONLY apply to seniority list mergers.

Unless all the individual pilot unions merged and shifted the industry to an apprentice/journeyman system where all airlines would have to approach ONE union to hire airline pilots, there could never be the scenario you describe.
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Well, this thread is totally off topic now, but how do seniority mergers usually work? If Delta buys Northwest, for example, how is that merger likely to work? You'd think both pilot groups would come to a satisfactory resolution, but then again I'll reference my previous post; most pilots aren't interested in your job, they're interested in their job--there's your "union" for you.
 
Velocipede said:
However, if you're non-Union or anti-Union, perhaps you should go ask your non-Union "brothers" for a ride to work.
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The amazing thing is you seem to want all airline pilots to unite under ALPA or at least unionize, but you're more interested in being petty and vindictive than doing things to actually further that goal.
 
Exactly why we should have had an ALPA NSL years ago. Since DAL and NWA are both international carriers with widebody airplanes, it should be simple. Career expectations from both groups are parallel.

Of course, given the history of NWA guys, they'll want to fence off the 747 and A340 flying from the Delta guys. And the Delta guys will respond by fencing off the 777 flying.

Its all so stupid. They've all got to work together eventually, but individual pilot greed will rear its ugly head. "Hey, I knew I wanted to fly 747s, so I applied at NWA. So you scummy, double breasted ATL Nazis should NEVER be able to bid the 747 as long as there is ONE ex-NWA guy who hasn't gotten the bid." And, it would be even more rabid if either of the two airlines had no widebody flying.

Hopefully, there will be some civilized heads on their respective merger committees and they can avoid all the hate and discontent AAA and AWA are going through right now.
 
flyover said:
The amazing thing is you seem to want all airline pilots to unite under ALPA or at least unionize, but you're more interested in being petty and vindictive than doing things to actually further that goal.
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Not at all. YOU explain why a non-Union or Anti-Union pilot should be extended UNION negotiated privileges.

Its not vindictive. They haven't earned them. Its sort of like illegal aliens wanting U.S. Social Security. Did they contribute to the system? No. So why should they benefit from it?

Non-military pilots are not eligible for Space A transportation on military airplanes. Is the military being vindictive or petty? No. If you didn't serve, you didn't EARN the privilege.

Why is that simple concept so hard for you to understand? Unless, of course, you are non-Union....
 
flyover said:
The amazing thing is you seem to want all airline pilots to unite under ALPA or at least unionize, but you're more interested in being petty and vindictive than doing things to actually further that goal.
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I don't know where you get this idea of it being "vindictive." I ask again: if a guy on the street is trying to mug you, would you hand him your concealed weapon to help him out? It's essentially the same thing. The non-union pilot is commuting to a job that is used by management to apply downward pressure on your wages, work rules, and benefits. Why are you giving him a helping hand in accomplishing that? I have no desire for revenge, but I also have no desire to help someone screw me over.
 
When I upgrade, I'm not going to let anyone on my jumpseat that doesn't share my same choice in soft drinks.. :)

If you're not a Dr. Pepper man, sorry.. Catch the next one, bozo..
 
Tram,

Someday, you might get serious about this profession and the erosion of your career earning potential. Unless YOU PERSONALLY take steps to combat it, you are the one who is going to suffer in the long run.

PCL and I will be long gone and YOU are going to be flying your dream airplane for Skybus (Regional) wages. Is that what you want?
 
Velocipede said:
YOU are going to be flying your dream airplane for Skybus (Regional) wages. Is that what you want?
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You have no idea what you are babbling about... I would never work for anything CLOSE to a Skybus, GoJets, etc, etc... I've seen what tools scabs are.. I've seen how they are treated for scabbing.. I will do nothing even close to being that....

However, being a jumpseat nazi is doing about as much for the profession as the P is doing in receipt.. Nothing....
 
That is strictly your opinion. Every single time we make it difficult for one of those toads to get to or from work helps illustrate the folly of their choices.
 
Velocipede said:
That is strictly your opinion. Every single time we make it difficult for one of those toads to get to or from work helps illustrate the folly of their choices.
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So if you willingly work for an airline with no union, you are a toad? Is that the gist?

What about an airline with something other than all mighty ALPA?
 
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