National Seniority List

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Velocipede said:
You ever get the feeling that the local opposition to our position is mostly made up of non or anti-Union pilots?
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I'm actually at 9E....

I haven't ever had anything against what you've said - those comments I've paid attention to - but being a jumpseat nazi, well, I hope YOU don't commute..

I understand the jumpseat concept.. There is no need to act like I am a moron, simply because I do not agree with you.. You can have a disagreement without the opposition being a complete moron.. I do not think of you, nor treat you like a moron.. Please do not do that to me..
 
PCL_128 said:
The day after 9/11, Captain Woerth (former ALPA President) was called by Norm Minetta (former Transportation Secretary) to participate in a conference call about the changes that were going to take place in airline security as a result of the attacks. During this call, Captain Woerth was told that "this is the end of jumpseating." The government's plan was to close all jumpseat access to everyone except checkairmen, Secret Service, and FAA & NTSB inspectors. Duane immediately went to work to make sure this didn't happen, and only after a few days of heavy lobbying and threats from the union did jumpseat access get restored to on-line pilots with plans to implement CASS in the future. In other words, your access to the jumpseat today is directly attributable to THE pilots' union. Without ALPA, jumpseats would be a thing of the past. It wasn't the Air Transport Association, SWAPA, AOPA, or anyone else that saved the jumpseat; it was ALPA.
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Well there you go. So the jumpseat is ALPA's personal little toy. I'm still waiting for the memo from national ALPA about the jumpseat wars and ALPA pilots staying off of non-ALPA jumpseats.

Thanks for explaining it all to me. God knows I don't know much about that stuff. Have fun with it. And whatever airline my next jumpseat belongs to you're welcome to it.
 
Never mind, PCL. Lots of bitterness floating around.

ALPA isn't sending any memos because (quoted from Section 115):

The Captain is, and shall always be, the final authority as to admission to the flight deck.

Seems plain enough to me.
 
PCL_128 said:
Don't hold your breath. ALPA doesn't make a habit of telling Captains what to do with their jumpseats. They are, after all, their jumpseats.
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So, if your not a Dr. Depper drinker - get'ta steppin! ;)

Actually, I think I'd let just about anyone on my jumpseat save for scabs and scumbags..

I know I've been heckling Velo a lil' in this thread, I understand what you guys are saying.. I understand where you are coming from.. However, to kick a jumpseater to the curb because he is not a union member could be a mistake... At Regions, we were undercutting NO ONE and we were none union for a long time, then we got the all mighty local 747 teamsters.. They were about as helpful as tits on a male hog..
 
Tram said:
So, if your not a Dr. Depper drinker - get'ta steppin! ;)
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I defended Captains for denying jumpseats for plenty worse reasons than that.

Actually, I think I'd let just about anyone on my jumpseat save for scabs and scumbags..
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Anti-union pilots are scumbags.

However, to kick a jumpseater to the curb because he is not a union member could be a mistake.
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Velo uses slightly difference criteria than I did. I had no problem with non-union pilots as long as they were pro-union. Velo apparently denies all non-union pilots, and that's his right, but I did it a little differently. With 33% of the Skywest pilots voting YES, and 49.5% of the Colgan pilots voting yes, I didn't feel that denying all of these pilots would be appropriate. Obviously, many of them understand the cause and support it. But if they have an anti-union reaction when asked for their union card, enjoy waiting for the next flight.
 
PCL_128 said:
Velo uses slightly difference criteria than I did. I had no problem with non-union pilots as long as they were pro-union.
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Yeh, I can understand the anti-union thing...

The "non-union" thing is "zealot like" behavior, but like you guys are saying, it is their jumpseat....
 
Velo and PCL you guys might want to read up on Tram. He knows first hand how well ALPA takes care of pilots and the need for a NSL.
 
Gonzo said:
Velo and PCL you guys might want to read up Tram. He knows first hand how well ALPA takes care of pilots and the need for a NSL.
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I'm well aware of what you're talking about. But anyone who blames ALPA for what took place at EAL is misplacing their anger. As we've already said, an NSL is unworkable, so a big NSL circle-jerk is not productive.
 
PCL_128 said:
I'm well aware of what you're talking about. But anyone who blames ALPA for what took place at EAL is misplacing their anger. As we've already said, an NSL is unworkable, so a big NSL circle-jerk is not productive.
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No I blame ALPA for what they didn't do for EAL Pilots. They did what a lot of pilots like to talk about but never do, that is STFD to stand thier ground. ALPA didn't take care of them like every other real union would have.
 
PCL_128 said:
Anyone who blames ALPA for what took place at EAL is misplacing their anger.
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I don't think anyone blames ALPA for what happened at EAL..

However, go grab an Ex-EAL guy and ask him what he thinks about ALPA..

I bet the answer you get is:

"It's better than nothing and that's about it..."

I've seen ALPA help individuals on an individual basis, but they don't seem to be doing much as a whole for the industry really.. I am totally pro-union.. When and if I ever get the pin (still don't have one) I'll wear it and proudly.. I am glad to be a member of ALPA - as it is indeed MUUUCH better than nothing, but I just don't seem them doing much, and I'm not talking about my airline.. I'm talking about industry wide...

Another thing I seem to notice is that ALPA can't seem to take even the slightest criticism without a bees nest being stirred.. A dues paying member should be allowed to have some gripes, if there is nothing being done..

What was the last major battle ALPA won? I am not being accusatory, I am asking a legit question..

I am not trying to start world world 3 here.. It's actually a shame you have to preface these posts sooo much to keep the maelstrom from winding up in your PM box, V-File, etc....

With that said.....

My biggest gripe - ALPA has done very little or has accomplished rather, very little on the fatigue front and unfortunately, I think it's going to take a heavy full of innocents flying all the way to the crash site at the hands of a sleepy crew, to get something done about it..

What you would guys consider to be ALPA's most recent major victory for the profession?

If I am wrong - please - correct me.. However, let's try and do it like the adults we all pretend to be.. :D
 
PCL_128 said:
Anti-union pilots can't be won over. You can win over the guys that are on the fence, and the new guys, but the guys that are already hard-core anti-union are unreachable. Trust me, I've tried.
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I've read your posts so I really can't trust that you've "tried" to win the "scumbags" over.

I will say this about the jumpseat belonging to the captain and through the captain as a union organizing tool and/or weapon. Every ALPA communication I ever got about the jumpseat was about not using it in that way. One of the biggest reasons is that if everyone got onboard with you then people like Duane Woerth would have no credibility to go to Mineta about the jumpseat. It would be known that the jumpseat was not about what ALPA said it was and was instead being used as a union weapon/tool.
Another thing is most ALPA pilots know the jumpseat used in that way actually works against the goal of organizing pilots. And of course a jumpseat war would hurt ALPA pilots who need non-union jumpseats to get to work.

I mean a war would be so easy. I find out that you won and ALPA jumpseats only go to union card holders. So I just deny the use of my jumpseat and rest bunk to any pilot from an ALPA carrier. Sweet.

As long as it's just a handful of guys like you it's no big deal. Have your fun, do as much damage as you can. Really put it to those "scumbags."

Actually this thread has been a perfect example about what having wars does for you. It opens old wounds for one thing. Makes sure no healing gets done and no new opportunities for common ground get found. It's the anit-christ of union organizing.
 
Gonzo said:
No I blame ALPA for what they didn't do for EAL Pilots. They did what a lot of pilots like to talk about but never do, that is STFD to stand thier ground. ALPA didn't take care of them like every other real union would have.
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What would you have had ALPA do? ALPA had no power to help these pilots, despite what they'd like you to believe that ALPA could have done. ALPA is not a magic wand that can be waved to solve problems. ALPA works within systems: government, the RLA, its own Bylaws, etc... You probably think ALPA should have gotten these pilots jobs. That's a nice thought, but ALPA doesn't hire pilots, and ALPA doesn't control the hiring process at any companies. At best, ALPA gets a seat at the Captains' interview board to interview and give a yea/nay to each applicant. Even that little bit is only at certain carriers.
 
Tram said:
However, go grab an Ex-EAL guy and ask him what he thinks about ALPA..
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Remember where I work? I fly with them quite a bit. I've heard every conceivable opinion about ALPA and the strike. But we all know what they say about opinions and a-holes: everybody's got one. Doesn't make them legitimate.

I bet the answer you get is:

"It's better than nothing and that's about it..."
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You mean the same answer that you get from just about any uninformed pilot about his union? Having a battle star on your ALPA pin is a badge of honor, but it doesn't indicate that you're informed about the Association. It just means that you went on strike.

A dues paying member should be allowed to have some gripes, if there is nothing being done..
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I have no problem with informed members that have gripes. But the average member has never even shown up to a Local Council meeting, so their gripes carry zero weight.

What was the last major battle ALPA won? I am not being accusatory, I am asking a legit question..
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Ask me that question again in a few weeks when a certain grievance arbitration is announced...
 
PCL_128 said:
Remember where I work?
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Yeh, I remember.. :) They have made it into my top 3 list.. :D


PCL_128 said:
I fly with them quite a bit. I've heard every conceivable opinion about ALPA and the strike. But we all know what they say about opinions and a-holes: everybody's got one. Doesn't make them legitimate.
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I would argue that the opinion from a member who has "been there done that" would be quite a bit more legitimate than one who doesn't have the "t-shirt.."


PCL_128 said:
Ask me that question again in a few weeks when a certain grievance arbitration is announced...
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See.. That's the problem.. You've been flying for how long, and you can't even mention the latest ALPA victory?
 
Tram said:
Yeh, I remember.. :) They have made it into my top 3 list.. :D
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Smart man. :) Da Tranny is where it's at.


I would argue that the opinion from a member who has "been there done that" would be quite a bit more legitimate than one who doesn't have the "t-shirt.."
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I wouldn't. Someone who's earned his battle star has certainly proven that he's a man of character, but not that he's knowledgeable about the Association. Thousands of pilots from several legacy carriers earned their battle stars during the 80s. But I'd bet you that only a few hundred of them could even tell you the difference between an MEC and an SPC. Pilots are woefully ignorant about their own union.

See.. That's the problem.. You've been flying for how long, and you can't even mention the latest ALPA victory?
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I just did. You just didn't read between the lines. A very important victory will soon be announced. Patience is a virtue.

But if you want something that's already happened, then give Captain Wychor at Mesaba a call and ask him what ALPA did for his pilot group. ALPA actually managed to get the Mesaba pilots a more expensive agreement while they were in bankruptcy!!! The company was trying to get their entire contract thrown out so they could pay copilots $12,000 per year, but ALPA managed to get them more than they already had in their pre-bankruptcy contract.
 
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