National Seniority List

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Dugie8 said:
I think this is the reason a NSL will never happen, a misconception (as I understand how a NSL would work) of how a NSL would work. As I understand it, under a NSL all you would be given is the longevity pay of the seat you are HIRED into at another airline. You would still have relative seniority in place. All that mumbo jumbo means, a 12 year captain at Eastern could get hired at Delta as an FO but be on 12 year FO pay and still be junior to a 1 year FO in terms of bidding and such.

The whole point of a NSL, in my mind, isn't to preserve your position at another airline it is to preserve your pay to a realistic ability.
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There was another post similar to this earlier in the thread. Wouldn't it just be easier to have a single pay rate, based on equipment, that gets adjusted each year for cost of living? That way you wouldn't have to worry about going "to the bottom." All Captains would get paid "X" regardless of years of service. All First Officers would get paid a percentage of X.

This does a few things: 1) it eliminates the management advantage "incremental growth" cost reductions (this is what cost AWAC its United business), 2) it reduces the financial pain that is felt when switching carriers, 3) it eliminates that first year probationary wage that everyone complains about.

You would still take a hit if you switched from Captain at one company to First Officer at another, but that happens anyway.
 
ryanmickG said:
A good friend of mine left a unionized airline for a non-union airline and hasn't been happier. He makes more money, better base, faster upgrade time. Whats the problem with that?
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The problem is that he's getting those good wages and work rules only because of unionized pilots at other airlines that do the hard work and pay dues to make it happen. His new non-union airline only pays what they do because they have to match the union wages to keep a union off the property. In other words, the non-union pilots are leaches that benefit from unions without contributing to the cause.

One of my old students was a mechanic for a major airline and he used to laugh while he told me stories of sleeping on the job and taking forever to finish a job because he didn't like his contract.
Sounds like a good way to increase morale, production and profit. :sarcasm:

This crap happens at all levels. Its stupid and will just piss management off more.
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This stuff only happens because management treats people like crap. When they delay negotiations for years upon years, people get pissed off and retaliate. Management brings these problems upon themselves.
 
But the things you're talking about Ryan, are, if you will, above my pay grade.

My job is first and foremost to make sure that I operate the aircraft safely.

Not on time.

Not while treating people well.

Not upside down.

Safe.

Now that's not to say I'm going to screw the customers outright, there's no reason for that. To be honest I feel pretty bad for these people when it hits the fan and things get canceled or delayed. But I won't ever do something I think is unsafe to shave off a few minutes or complete a flight that I think is a really bad idea. Honestly? That has never been a problem, dispatch and the captains I've flown with have been excellent. I haven't been backed into a corner yet where I really feel like we're doing something really, really, really stupid and REALLY need to speak up while the captain is flying willy nilly into a thunderstorm to shave off 30 seconds.

The union allows us the ability to do that without worrying about the backlash from the company. Let's give an example:

Say you get to the plane at the out station and your brake wear indicators are past the point where you can depart. Actually, let's just say ONE of them is past the point. Now you know, realistically, that the airplane will stop and you've got TONS of brakes left on the plane. And heck, even if one caliper won't close up the other three will and you've still got reversers right?

So do you ignore it and go about your business and make the company some money and not inconvenience some people? Or do you say, "Nope, not gonna fly this thing. I don't care if we're at an out station with no MX, we're not departing unless there's an MEL or some other legal way we can do this."

You'll stand 50 people overnight, they'll miss their connections, the company will lose tons of money, etc. etc. What do YOU do, and who protects you from the manager that gets up in your face about your decision who says, "You KNEW it was fine to depart, you just cost this company thousands of dollars, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah." Me? I call the union and tell them to take care of the schmuck. If you're at a non union company it might not be that easy. You could call the FAA and be a whistleblower, but we know how far that gets people.

Or I guess put in simpler terms, we're in a safety oriented industry, not a customer service oriented industry. Who cares how well the customers get taken care of if we kill all of them.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Ooh, here's a half-thought out idea that I just had, but may disagree with by the time I finish the sentence...

How about ALPA issuing Part-121 ATPs... And at the point you receive an ATP and working for a unionized carrier, you're issued a seniority #.

I knew it would happen. Aww nevermind.
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Do you mean ALPA marking the day you get your ATP ticket as your date of seniority?

Date of first dues paid at a union carrier would seem a little more fair to me. I'm right seat at a 121 carrier and don't expect to actually acquire the piece of paper for ATP until I upgrade. Nevermind the fact that I do the same kind of flying to the same standards...
 
jtrain609 said:
Or I guess put in simpler terms, we're in a safety oriented industry, not a customer service oriented industry. Who cares how well the customers get taken care of if we kill all of them.
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Good points John, but you are in a customer service industry. In fact pilots are the face of the companies.

Remember that youtube video of the people stuck on an airline for many hours? I know that the crews hands were tied but man that Captain just sat there without standing up and explaining to to the pax whats going on.
 
I agree, that captain did a crummy job of trying to communicate what was happening, but I think it's the exception and not the rule. I've spent a few days in the ball park in Newark sitting for 3+ hours before and it sucks no doubt, but it's also the way things go out there in the summer.

For the most part, every captain I've flown with has been excellent in trying to keep the folks in the back up to date on what's happening.
 
PCL_128 said:
I was a union organizer for ALPA. So what do you think my goals are?
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Well I have an idea what your goals might be, but I am often confused about the tactics that you appear to use. It often seems to me they do not necessarily match up to what I think that your goals are. That is exactly why I am asking for clarification.

And just so you don't think that I am asking the question to ambush you, I will tell you up front that the reason I am asking for the clarification is that I would like to discuss your use of terms like "leaches" and "scum-bag" in regards to your goals.

So I ask again...what are your goals regarding pilots at non-union airlines?

:)
 
ryanmickG said:
As long as its not something childish like not giving them a ride home when they need it.
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An anti-union pilot shouldn't get a free ride home when they need it. Call it "childish" if you wish, but giving a free ride to an anti-union pilot is akin to handing a gun to someone trying to mug you.
 
ryanmickG said:
Maybe if employees gave a rats ass about the company then maybe management might return the favor and give a rats ass about you.
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Corporate America was first to turn its back to labor, not the other way around. Used to be that companies viewed their workforce as an asset, and loyalty was a two-way street where people spent their whole careers at a single company. Now labor is viewed as a disposable liability, and things like pensions are simply obstacles to be litigated away in bankruptcy court instead of the deferred compensation commitments they represent. (Interesting that executive pensions are always fully-funded in bankruptcy-proof trusts these days, as if to intentionally shield them from courts and creditors.)

Why the change?

Executive greed.

Corporate execs these days are professional job hoppers, out for a quick bump in stock prices--and thus their compensation--and are willing to do ANYTHING to ensure it. 4-5 years or less and they pull the ripcord on their golden parachute, and usually leaving a ticking timebomb behind in the form of hidden accounting irregularities, etc. It's why laws like Sarbanes-Oxley were enacted.

I've said it before and I'll say it again now: lawyers are a necessary evil, it's MBAs who are the scum of the earth.

Ryanmickg, you've obviously been fed the business school perspective on unions, it's time you read Flying The Line, Pts I & II to understand the labor perspective. I'm sure one of the ALPA types can get you free copies.
 
"My goal is to see all air line pilots represented by the Air Line Pilots Association."

That's kinda nuts. You blow off all the other unions with a stance like that....

So, whenever you upgrade, you gonna refuse all non-ALPA jumpseaters? That's more hard core than JC's presently most extremist hard core example, Velo of Alaska Air.

I hate to be your enemy PCL, outside the fact that you entered the biz via Gulfstream Academy, but your stated goal that I quoted above will make you not so popular at my highly successful union airline.

Good luck with that....
 
DE727UPS said:
That's kinda nuts. You blow off all the other unions with a stance like that....
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We will have much more leverage and be much more effective as a single cohesive union rather than as half a dozen independent entities. Remember, I'm a member of a non-ALPA union now. I support my union, and I volunteer for my union. But I don't find it to be as effective as ALPA, and I hope to see us merge someday.



So, whenever you upgrade, you gonna refuse all non-ALPA jumpseaters?
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Um, no. Don't think I ever said that. I'll refuse all anti-union pilots, however. But if you're a member in good standing of some union (with the exception of the GoJet IBT unit), then you'll get a ride from me.

BTW, Don, I'm actually a big fan of the IPA. I used to jumpseat on you guys all the time to get home from DTW. I was thoroughly impressed with the level of unity that I observed. But, I would prefer to see the good members of the IPA merged into ALPA. That's best for all of us.
 
"But, I would prefer to see the good members of the IPA merged into ALPA"

Dream on.....

Unless you can get us a better deal.

Like I said, dream on....
 
Maybe ALPA in itself is not the answer, but if all professional pilots were members of a single national union, that would certainly help collective bargaining.
 
Hacker15e said:
Maybe ALPA in itself is not the answer, but if all professional pilots were members of a single national union, that would certainly help collective bargaining.
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Exactly what I wondered when I was a kid in school before I ever took a flight lesson. I just couldn't figure out why, when FedEx and UPS pilots wanted raises or work rules to match DAL, UAL, etc. during the 90s, why would the pax carriers not vouch for them. Or, if say ValuJet pilots didn't get the raise they wanted, why would USAir, FedEx, American, and the rest go on strike with them. I don't yet know enough about the RLA to know if that would be legal or not but it sure would create real leverage instead of what there is now.
 
Nick said:
Exactly what I wondered when I was a kid in school before I ever took a flight lesson. I just couldn't figure out why, when FedEx and UPS pilots wanted raises or work rules to match DAL, UAL, etc. during the 90s, why would the pax carriers not vouch for them. Or, if say ValuJet pilots didn't get the raise they wanted, why would USAir, FedEx, American, and the rest go on strike with them. I don't yet know enough about the RLA to know if that would be legal or not but it sure would create real leverage instead of what there is now.
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It actually is legal. It's called a secondary boycott, or "sympathy strike" in layman's terms. Captain Woerth was seriously considering calling a secondary boycott if the Mesaba pilots had to go on strike during the bankruptcy. It never got to that, but I think he probably would have gone through with it if necessary. Prater hasn't really talked about the concept very much, but it's always a legal avenue if needed.
 
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