National Seniority List

[ClearedForOption]

I think that this says it all here... no one will ever agree on this issue because everyone is going to chime in based on what would be total self interest on their part. (i.e. as long as everyone else is tacked on the bottom, do whatever the heck you want!)

It's like democracy... it ain't perfect. People get screwed. But what we've got is a thousand times better than the alternative and even though the system is "broke" and it would take a total teardown of the current system to make a NSL work it isn't going to happen because people are going to protect what they see as theirs... benefits fought for and hard won. (by having the luck to choose the right company at the right time) :banghead:

 

[Hacker15e]

It works for every other industry in the world. It makes for productive employees that try their best to make their company better than their competitors, which in turn generates revenue for the company and increases pay.

An idea which penalizes pilots who make the "right" call when it comes to the safety of their equipment.

The pilot primarily interested in looking good to management, by generating more revenue, takes the jet that needs maintenance.

The pilot with safety in mind does NOT take the jet...and doesn't look like a 'company man' to management, and he suffers when it comes around to promotion time.

Jets are expensive to maintain properly. Companies try to cut costs by cutting corners on maintenance. It is only the aircrews who put their foot down that keep bad things from happening...and they are only able to do it because they are generally protected from backlash by the seniority -- rather than merit -- promotion system.

C'mon, dude. I'm a military guy. We operate on the world's biggest merit-based promotion system, and have for a LONG time. There are far more inherent problems with merit progression than there are with simple seniority. It's the guy that LOOKS the best, rather than the one that performs the best, who gets the promotion. It breeds a lot of backstabbing and square-filling.

Simple seniority works perfectly in a profession where flying is the ONLY job that the employee is responsible for, and the performance of that job is tightly regulated by the FAA with checkride standards.

 

[Fly4Pay]

C'mon, dude. I'm a military guy. We operate on the world's biggest merit-based promotion system, and have for a LONG time. There are far more inherent problems with merit progression than there are with simple seniority. It's the guy that LOOKS the best, rather than the one that performs the best, who gets the promotion. It breeds a lot of backstabbing and square-filling.

Speaking as one who is now in the airlines for this exact reason (getting "passed over" for promotion).... :yeahthat:

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You know this how?

Because that's human nature. Managers help out people that go "above and beyond," which to them can mean taking airplanes that should be grounded, flying when they're sick, etc... A pilot whose upgrade depends on "merit-based" promotion has to worry about how his actions as a pilot will affect his career advancement. That's a scary proposition. When I make decisions, I don't have to worry that my career advancement will be affected. When I refused airplanes at Pinnacle because they had a broken APU, I didn't have to worry that some vindictive manager would try to get back at me by giving me a crappy schedule, or making me work holidays, or whatever else, because my seniority dictated everything. The seniority system is as much about safety and pilot authority as it is anything else.

You dont get offended when some idiot pilot that has no business flying has a bigger paycheck because he got hired a few months before you?

No. Seniority is the only acceptable system.

 

[germb747]

So, assuming a NSL is implemented, why would Airline B hire somebody who has worked at Airline A for 25 years and has accrued very high seniority and would presumably demand the highest pay, schedules, equipment, etc, when Airline B could just hire an equally qualified pilot from the military (who apparently nobody thinks should be included), at entry level wages? Sounds to me a NSL would be a self-defeating measure. Why wouldn't they prefer to hire a highly experienced corporate or Airline C pilot who has been flying professionally for 10-15 years at the appropriate wage? Would not pretty much everyone who wants to change jobs who has any sort of accrued seniority be screwed? Airlines will be more inclined than they already are to, after everyone from the military/non-NSL corporate guys get their job of choice, hire everyone else from the "90-day-wonder" academies.

With the above in mind, what exactly would be the purpose of this list? Pay protection, furlough protection, upgrade/equipment determination? If I were, say an 8-year FO, would it be right to allow someone with 10 years at another carrier to be plopped in the left seat right next to me who has little clue (compared to me) how my company operates and our procedures?

This is an exciting conversation, but I just don't see it happening. It's less fair than the system we already have.

...or have I just not thought this through?

 

[Fly4Pay]

You know this how?
You dont get offended when some idiot pilot that has no business flying has a bigger paycheck because he got hired a few months before you?

Well get this... PCL has been doing airline flying much longer than me (and has about the same hours I do).

BUT...I've been doing military flying since he was four years old.

How would YOU stack us up?

As it turns out, PCL will be eatin' my dust at the Tran till the flight doc pulls my Class I, just 'cause he's in the same class but younger than me.

Age before beauty!

(no wait.... I win age and beauty... strike that! )

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

...or have I just not thought this through?

Actually, the problem is that you have thought this through. All of the NSL proponents love the idea, but they never bother to think through all of the crazy permutations and road blocks that they'd have to deal with. Simply put, an NSL is completely impossible to achieve. This is nothing but mental and verbal masturbation. Pilots should spend their time focusing on things that can actually be accomplished rather than getting hung up on fantasy scenarios of NSLs and nation-wide strikes.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

How would YOU stack us up?

Isn't it obvious? I'd be senior, of course.

 

[Goonie]

Because that's human nature. Managers help out people that go "above and beyond," which to them can mean taking airplanes that should be grounded, flying when they're sick, etc... A pilot whose upgrade depends on "merit-based" promotion has to worry about how his actions as a pilot will affect his career advancement. That's a scary proposition. When I make decisions, I don't have to worry that my career advancement will be affected. When I refused airplanes at Pinnacle because they had a broken APU, I didn't have to worry that some vindictive manager would try to get back at me by giving me a crappy schedule, or making me work holidays, or whatever else, because my seniority dictated everything. The seniority system is as much about safety and pilot authority as it is anything else.



No. Seniority is the only acceptable system.

I'll admit.... you bring up good points.

I guess the "office politics" would get out of hand. Now lets talk about why unions are bad for business.

 

[flyover]

We've been hanging separately and my wallet certainly hurts.

It's hard to imagine the industry under a NSL scheme. But one wonders how much your wallet would hurt if fraternal brothers could have moved in above you, using Delta as their life raft? The question that started the thread was why didn't his uncle's years of dedicated service at Eastern earn him a senior captain position at Delta?

 

[Hacker15e]

It's hard to imagine the industry under a NSL scheme. But one wonders how much your wallet would hurt if fraternal brothers could have moved in above you, using Delta as their life raft? The question that started the thread was why didn't his uncle's years of dedicated service at Eastern earn him a senior captain position at Delta?

Very good point, and one that would have to be worked out.

I think this is part of why such a paradigm shift would be tough...but worth it in the long run.

It would mean that airline pilots collectively would actually be a group, instead of a bunch of groups at individual airlines.

 

[jtrain609]

You wanna know what we REALLY need, but we will never have?

We need to be employed by our unions and when the airlines need some work done, they come down to the local union hall and say, "Hey! We need 300 pilots that are qualified on the 737 to come do some work for us." The union tells them how much it'll cost them, and we jet on over to Chicago to do some flying for United for a while. When they're done with those pilots, they go back to the union hall and sit in seniority order until somebody else calls up and needs some work done.

There are some problems with that, though. Who's gonna pay for the training? What standards will you use? Callouts? Flows? (This is the point where the US Airways guy says, "What's a flow?") What happens when your aircraft type isn't used anymore, who pays for your training on the next aircraft?

In other words, it'd be a giant cluster, but it'd take us away from an airline centered model where we are employed by an airline and make it a pilot centered model where we're looked at as contractors that are all employed by a union, and contracted out to the airlines. It centralizes the control of pay and benefits and prevents us undercutting each other.

 

[CFIscare]

I personally think that a NSL would have too many problems for it to be a positive thing, thus I do not support it.

However, thinking out-loud here, how about a list that wouldn't put you ahead of another pilot seniority-wise, but would allow you to be paid the amount of years served under ALPA.

For example, say an airline went under. A pilot for that airline who has been a member of ALPA for 15 years gets hired by another airline. Under this scenario, the pilot would fall at the bottom of that specific airlines seniority list (upgrades, etc.) but would be paid as if he/she was a 15 year F/O.

Excuse me? I've been in this career for over 10 years and have been just fine without a seniority #.

I think hard work and performance should determine how far up the food chain you should go.

Ideally that would be perfect, but once you get into an operation of significant size, there would be no way in determining that without too many issues being raised.

 

[flyover]

Actually, the problem is that you have thought this through. All of the NSL proponents love the idea, but they never bother to think through all of the crazy permutations and road blocks that they'd have to deal with. Simply put, an NSL is completely impossible to achieve. This is nothing but mental and verbal masturbation. Pilots should spend their time focusing on things that can actually be accomplished rather than getting hung up on fantasy scenarios of NSLs and nation-wide strikes.

Exactly.

 

[Velocipede]

C'mon, dude. I'm a military guy. We operate on the world's biggest merit-based promotion system, and have for a LONG time. There are far more inherent problems with merit progression than there are with simple seniority. It's the guy that LOOKS the best, rather than the one that performs the best, who gets the promotion. It breeds a lot of backstabbing and square-filling.

Well said, Hack. All it takes is a look around various Chief Pilot's Offices. Rarely, if ever, in the airlines do the best PILOTS get those kind of jobs. Generally speaking its the best butt kissers and the Boss's buddies who are sitting in those offices.

Meanwhile, the rest of us are out flying the line. And seniority systems guarantee we don't get screwed for making the proper "safety calls" as opposed to the "management" calls.

That's the very issues upon which ALPA was founded so long ago. And those who do not know history are doomed to relive it.

 

[flyover]

Well said, Hack. All it takes is a look around various Chief Pilot's Offices. Rarely, if ever, in the airlines do the best PILOTS get those kind of jobs. Generally speaking its the best butt kissers and the Boss's buddies who are sitting in those offices.

Meanwhile, the rest of us are out flying the line. And seniority systems guarantee we don't get screwed for making the proper "safety calls" as opposed to the "management" calls.

That's the very issues upon which ALPA was founded so long ago. And those who do not know history are doomed to relive it.

At the airlines I'm most familiar with it's the guys who like administrative work enough to put in the long hours and take on the responsibilities that end up in the office. And yes, for some of them it's guys who don't like to fly the line. But most of them can avoid that by just instructing.

A seniority system is definitely the way to go. It promotes group cohesiveness since everyone can see the fairness of it. No politics required to make captain.

And it's that cohesiveness that makes a NSL impossible and list mergers so contentious. If national ALPA made any real effort towards a NSL the various pilot groups would have de-certification drives going the next day.

 

[Dugie8]

It's hard to imagine the industry under a NSL scheme. But one wonders how much your wallet would hurt if fraternal brothers could have moved in above you, using Delta as their life raft? The question that started the thread was why didn't his uncle's years of dedicated service at Eastern earn him a senior captain position at Delta?

I think this is the reason a NSL will never happen, a misconception (as I understand how a NSL would work) of how a NSL would work. As I understand it, under a NSL all you would be given is the longevity pay of the seat you are HIRED into at another airline. You would still have relative seniority in place. All that mumbo jumbo means, a 12 year captain at Eastern could get hired at Delta as an FO but be on 12 year FO pay and still be junior to a 1 year FO in terms of bidding and such.

The whole point of a NSL, in my mind, isn't to preserve your position at another airline it is to preserve your pay to a realistic ability.

 

[Goonie]

You wanna know what we REALLY need, but we will never have?

We need to be employed by our unions and when the airlines need some work done, they come down to the local union hall and say, "Hey! We need 300 pilots that are qualified on the 737 to come do some work for us." The union tells them how much it'll cost them, and we jet on over to Chicago to do some flying for United for a while. When they're done with those pilots, they go back to the union hall and sit in seniority order until somebody else calls up and needs some work done.

There are some problems with that, though. Who's gonna pay for the training? What standards will you use? Callouts? Flows? (This is the point where the US Airways guy says, "What's a flow?") What happens when your aircraft type isn't used anymore, who pays for your training on the next aircraft?

In other words, it'd be a giant cluster, but it'd take us away from an airline centered model where we are employed by an airline and make it a pilot centered model where we're looked at as contractors that are all employed by a union, and contracted out to the airlines. It centralizes the control of pay and benefits and prevents us undercutting each other.

Another problem with that John.

You know i'm not an airline guy so please excuse my ignorance on the subject and correct me if I'm wrong.

But whatever happened to pride for your company? I know management makes this impossible for some people but I think their are two sides to every story. We only hear one side on this website though. As much as people dont want hear it we work in a customer service industry. With your idea you could probably kiss customer service goodbye. I think some people have already done this... which is sad.

This is one of my problems with unions. Their are too many people that want to hide behind them. You know as well as I do the horrible pilots that slip through the cracks and become airline pilots. I'm not talking about low time guys either. If a pilot screws up in a cockpit then they probably should get fired. Its a matter of safety. The union can back you up though, unless you steal a cup of yogurt off the plane then you can get fired on the spot...it makes no sense.

Maybe if employees gave a rats ass about the company then maybe management might return the favor and give a rats ass about you.

I have heard too many people on this website tell stories about how they will do things like slow taxing, and they wonder why the airlins wont give them a barrel of money to fly their CRJ around...Duh.

Face it....learning to fly airplanes is easy. Its the intangables like customer service that a lot of people are lacking in this profession.

I'm not saying that I'm anti-union but it does create lazy bitter employees that should be fired. And thats not just in this industry....

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You've already said that you aren't an airline guy, so don't you think that maybe you don't have a clue about how things are in this industry? Your characterizations of unions, customer service, etc... are completely wrong. Incompetent pilots do get fired. I was damn good at representing pilots and getting them out of trouble when the company tried to discipline them for BS reasons, but even I couldn't protect someone that was dangerous or incompetent. The stereotypical "tenured" union employee that can't get fired is a myth, in this industry and all other industries. Unions can't wave magic wands and keep people from getting fired that deserve to be fired. Unions just make sure that the companies have to get their ducks in a row before firing someone so it can be determined that someone really did deserve it. Otherwise, companies would be firing pilots left and right for just not kissing enough management ass.

 

[Goonie]

I just dont like the preachy union talk all the time.

If someone happens to get hired at a non-union airline everyone is quick to jump down their throat about it. A good friend of mine left a unionized airline for a non-union airline and hasn't been happier. He makes more money, better base, faster upgrade time. Whats the problem with that?

I DO know about airline customer service! I do fly as a customer.

One of my old students was a mechanic for a major airline and he used to laugh while he told me stories of sleeping on the job and taking forever to finish a job because he didn't like his contract.

Sounds like a good way to increase morale, production and profit.

This crap happens at all levels. Its stupid and will just piss management off more.