National Seniority List

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Yeah but how would that help in your plan when I get hired at a legacy? Say I go to Continental, which I won't be applying to, but let's work with this. Say I end up there, I STILL go back to $29 an hour and no health insurance for 6 months. My bid seniority STILL blows and I'm STILL commuting to Newark to work 6 on, 2 off for the next 15 years.

As far as I'm concerned, until we have transparency between companies, national work rules and national pay rates that are set by a strong national union (that you also adovcate), that allows for moving from one company to the other without losing pay, benefits and QOL, we are screwing ourselves. This will do a few things:

-Protect your career in the event of merger/furlough at a mainline carrier, allowing you to pack up your experience and take it to another company.

-Prevent the regionals from trying to undercut each other because they'll all cost the same. You compete on quality of service and other metrics besides who can ##### themselves out the most, which is the current stystem. With the larger and larger regional airframes we're seeing these days, that's not just affecting MY paycheck, but YOURS also.
 
germb747 said:
What do you guys suggest be the "price of admission" to the National Seniority List?

a) Initial Part 121 employment (with a "major airline")
b) Initial Part 121 employment with any airline/cargo outfit
c) Initial Part 135/121 employment/entry into CASS
d) Entry into (or Graduation from) Undergraduate Pilot Training (for military)
e) Initial employment as a pilot in any capacity (Including CFI/corporate)
f) Upon award of the ATP or CPL?
g) Any of the above
h) None of the above

Just curious as to how you guys would fairly integrate everybody into one seniority list.
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C :). There are some rather large 135 charter/cargo companies that a NSL could benefit pilots too. And if you flip flop between the 2 (121/135), which occurs often, the list would "transfer" you number over.
 
The lack of a National Seniority List is what's keeping that plane from taking off of the treadmill...
















<ducking>
 
Fly4Pay said:
The lack of a National Seniority List is what's keeping that plane from taking off of the treadmill...
















<ducking>
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OK, I def appreciate that response the most:D But also much thanks to all the others. Some great insight to a very complicated, and I'm sure touchy, subject.
 
There are quite a few flying jobs that don't involve a seniority list. And I'm not talking about non-union airlines, either.
 
While I understand the challenges of creating and integrating a National Seniority List, I think that it is the only way the pilot profession is going to ever actually be able to act collectively.

"What if" ALPA or some other group started the list, but for the time being the seniority positions didn't mean anything -- the individual carriers could keep their own systems. The only people who would be on the national list would be "everyone who got their ATP starting 1 July 2008", so just new guys.

But 5 or 10 years down the road, as more and more people got on the national list, they could start to use that as leverage in bargaining with hopes of eventually having it completely replace single-company lists.

germb747 said:
because most pilots don't care about 'your job' or 'our jobs', they care about their job.
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I'm surprised that more people don't realize this. Unfortunate, but true.

Best quote about the professional (airline) pilot community I've read.
 
SteveC said:
There are quite a few flying jobs that don't involve a seniority list. And I'm not talking about non-union airlines, either.
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I worked a job where there was "a list," but it didn't mean much except for to determine your pay rate. Upgrades, base transfered, etc. etc. were not based on the list.

It was a bloody mess. I saw guys that should have been fired not lose their jobs, and guys that pissed off the wrong people get forced out. In fact bloody mess is the nicest way I can describe it, and if you and me were chatting over this issue after having a few beers I've got a full string of expletives to describe what I really thought about it.
 
I think it's silly that a skipper that's been flying the 747 for 20 years should have to go to the bottom of the ladder to read checklists for a captain that may be younger than his son. I vote for the NSL.
 
It's hard to make a national list because it wouldn't be fair if it was made retroactive.

For example all the pilots who didn't buy their job and/or go to some POS carrier with 300 hours would have better senority than people who've been in aviation for a long time possibly 135 or other non alpa carrier.

I don't think 121 ATP would work. What if like me you had a ATP prior to 121? The other problem is what if you were at a company with a 2 year upgrade when you got hired that blossomed to a 8 year upgrade. You were part of alpa for 8 years, but would get screwed.

If you did it by CPL it would atleast be at a point where you were making a commitment to a professional career in aviation. The down side you could say would be what if you took time off and then came back. i.e. you got a commercial in 1990, but have 500 hours in 2010 and are trying to get on with some one.

I agree with Velo's take on ALPA being an association when it should be a true union. If that was the case for the last xx years then the industry wouldn't be fleeced away with regional jets, B payscales, and UBER discount carriers.

It's nice to say NSL because no one wants to be SOL at 55, but some times you just are. Lots of people in all other jobs get screwed when they have been there for a while. Its just the way life is. Unfair.
 
I was actually thinking about it only this week. I decided to come up with a list of pros and cons. I guess I'll come up with a solution while I'm at it. No doubt there will
be a lot of angry people, but let's hope the majority will be happy.
 
PCL_128 said:
Then you should probably find a different career.
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Excuse me? I've been in this career for over 10 years and have been just fine without a seniority #.

I think hard work and performance should determine how far up the food chain you should go.
 
ryanmickG said:
Excuse me? I've been in this career for over 10 years and have been just fine without a seniority #.

I think hard work and performance should determine how far up the food chain you should go.
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I know where you're coming from with this post, even if others don't.

Having said that merit based promotions are not good for 121/135 industry.
 
ryanmickG said:
Excuse me? I've been in this career for over 10 years and have been just fine without a seniority #.

I think hard work and performance should determine how far up the food chain you should go.
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"Hard work and performance" equals ass-kissing and pandering. I'll stick with the seniority system.
 
PCL_128 said:
"Hard work and performance" equals ass-kissing and pandering. I'll stick with the seniority system.
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You know this how?
You dont get offended when some idiot pilot that has no business flying has a bigger paycheck because he got hired a few months before you?
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
I know where you're coming from with this post, even if others don't.

Having said that merit based promotions are not good for 121/135 industry.
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It works for every other industry in the world. It makes for productive employees that try their best to make their company better than their competitors, which in turn generates revenue for the company and increases pay.
 
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