multi time?

[mshunter]

I'm wondering the same thing. If someone passes their checkride and earns their certificate, what's the difference? They've shown they need to know what's required and can execute the manuevers safely haven't they?

So, they didn't sit around the airport everyday talking to other students and flying only 2-3 times a week for a year and a half?

Pilots are individuals, everyone is different. You can't say that someone who does a 90 day program doesn't know as much as someone who took 3 years to get their certificates. I don't remember everyone coming out of the 11th grade being just as smart and knowledgeable as each other. Stop generalizing for once.

thank you for this post satellite. pilot-mill or not, if you can't meet the minum standards, you still won't get the certificate. FBO or MILL. as for me, i made it through "the mill", with out busting a single checkride. i studied, listened, and did well. one advantage of "pilot mills" is total immersion. you eat-sleep-drink-$h!^ aviation. and to bo honest, i am teaching some of the pilots at my FBO things that were missed during their training since it was a "loose" circulum, that was spaced out, which lead the instructor to also miss stuff.

 

[Douglas]

Touché

He was expressing his own opinion. No experience is required.

Hey how did you get the accent aigu above the e, did you go to a 141 college too?

I have seen some pretty bad pilots/CFI's come out of both.

 

[juxtapilot]

Hey how did you get the accent aigu above the e,

google.

did you go to a 141 college too?

Unfortunatly, wasted a year there.

I have seen some pretty bad pilots/CFI's come out of both.

I've seen some great pilots come out of both too.

 

[GlenA]

I was only trying to point out that it wasn't wasted time. For ME, the FBO experience was a bad one. It was very hard for me to get what I needed and I was watching people going on 6 months trying to get a simple commercial certificate because of the way things were run. Is this the way it will be at all FBO's? Of course not. There were other situations in my life that led to me gravitating towards a "pilot mill" to finish my ratings. I was promised a certain outcome from the program and I got what I paid for and I left a satisfied customer. I got hired at a different flight school were <gasp!> other people from the same "pilot mill" were hired and where other people from FBO's, furloughed regional pilots trying to instruct again, and people from the same "pilot mill" as myself were not hired. It all depends on the person you are. I had to pass all the same tests and my CFI initial was done through the FSDO so there was definitely no favoritism there. I worked hard to get where I have. I am not trying to say the other paths are wrong. I just want to say taking the path that I did isn't wrong either. And that I haven't experienced a job yet (yes I have had other life experiences!) where having a little bit to seperate you and help you stand out from the rest of the pack hasn't helped.

 

[vheissu]

mshunter, are you the new SoCal Marketing Director for ATP? Serious question.

 

[Inverted25]

This thread is like comparing apples to oranges. We just had this discussion where I fly out of (part 61). There is pluses and minuses to both sides of the argument. Part of your argument for ATP being cheaper is wrong. Your figuring that going to part 61 we would do any safety pilot time to get the hours. I fly out of sky park in Wadsworth,OH. www.flyskypark.com We charge 49.08 a hour for a 150, 52.62 for a 152, 79.08 for a 172, 147 for a 182, and around 197 around there for a twin. For me to go from 0-270 hours with CFI/CFII cost me around 17k including instructor fees and DPE fees. The reason for it being low is safety pilot time. Me and buddy would fly instrument approaches in a 172 for basically 40 bucks a hour and both log the entire thing. This is the best way to gain time. One flies the airplane while the other talks on the radios. This way your both involved and your learning. We also used this time to practice right seat flying and teaching for our CFI/CFII. Then you can go up to Trevor city Michigan and get your MULTI add on for 1700 total. That gets your 10 hours plus your check ride. Just go to google and type in trevor city flight training you will see it. His program is 1400 plus 300 for the checkride. That puts the total cost at around 19000. Then you can come back to skypark get another 100 hours mulit time by again safety piloting in the twin their which would cost your 100 dollars a hour bc your splitting cost. Again one of you flying and the other on the radios. So in the end you would spend 29000 for the same thing you get at ATP. I understand your argument but you didnt figure in the fact we can safety pilot to cut costs in half. Which is what ATP has you do too so dont tell me safety piloting doesnt count. So when it comes down to it ATP can't compete with a good part 61. Now i will give you sky park is now a regular run of the mill FBO. We are a private owned school with over 20 airplanes so its almost like a 141 just we dont like the extra paper work

 

[GlenA]

they'll let you rent the plane for time building with just 10 hours of multi-engine experience? I'm not following..

 

[Captain_Bob]

mshunter, are you the new SoCal Marketing Director for ATP? Serious question.

Not everyone who talks highly of their experience at their flight school/FBO alma mater is a marketer. I doubt that mshunter is as well since he stated that he's working for an FBO. Now that I think about it... I'm thinking your question was rhetorical and you are simply chiding him for being overly enthusiastic with his responses to his experience. I don't know really... it's hard to read the inflection here on the forums.

There is pluses and minuses to both sides of the argument.

Agreed.

For me to go from 0-270 hours with CFI/CFII cost me around 17k including instructor fees and DPE fees.

Would your manager, owner, or Chief Pilot put that in writing? If so... that would be one of the only FBO's I've seen do that.

Also, does that cost include: Housing? Jepp subscription? All training materials books/Gleim study guides/oral test prep? All written exams? Got Garmins? Flights into and out of heavy Class B airspace for SID/STAR and approach/departure experience? Insurance included? Unlimited access to flight instructors for no additional fees? Unlimited use of Level 3 FTD's? Admin fees? Access to the largest GA multi-engine fleet so if there's a mechanical issue you have an aircraft waiting for you or one is flown in within a day? Cross Country Housing/Hotels?

Me and buddy would fly instrument approaches in a 172 for basically 40 bucks a hour and both log the entire thing.

Well, not the entire thing... and not dual logging of the approaches, I hope.

One flies the airplane while the other talks on the radios.

One is under the hood and the other is doing more than just "working the radios too, right? Checklists, looking for traffic, scanning the instruments while providing continuous feedback to the PF, looking for traffic, scanning, feedback, traffic, etc. I think that's where the benefits of SP time really start to really pan out.

We also used this time to practice right seat flying and teaching for our CFI/CFII.

Excellent idea. That was some the best advice I got while doing my commercial cross country flights.

Then you can go up to Trevor city Michigan and get your MULTI add on for 1700 total. That gets your 10 hours plus your check ride. Just go to google and type in trevor city flight training you will see it. His program is 1400 plus 300 for the checkride.

That's Tom Brady... I've heard some good things about him and have loooked into him for my seaplane rating. By the way... it's Traverse City. Sorry about the correction... I'm from Michigan originally.

Realize though that not everyone is from Northern Michigan and the 99.9% of us that don't live up there would also be spending an additional several hundred dollars in plane fare/gas/food/lodgeing/etc.

So in the end you would spend 29000 for the same thing you get at ATP.

Weren't you just talking about apples and oranges?

BTW, don't you need 300TT to even touch the multi aircraft at SkyPark and even more restrictions than that if your aren't a "graduate" of their instruction (300TT/50ME/5 in type and a checkout)?

I understand your argument but you didnt figure in the fact we can safety pilot to cut costs in half. Which is what ATP has you do too so dont tell me safety piloting doesnt count.

You only have @ 35 hours of SP time at ATP.

So when it comes down to it ATP can't compete with a good part 61.

The same can be said in reverse depending on who you talk to and their specific experience with each type of program.

BTW... I see that you are from Vermillion. Do they still have the Fish Festival? I used to live in OH and I miss that.

Bob

 

[Inverted25]

Responding to Captain Bob

The 17k it cost me to get thru CFII includes all airplane rental, CFI/CFII instruction pay, all written test fees, all flight test fees, access to all of kings dvd instruction video (i personally used my own ground school material i didn't care to watch the movies in the theater), membership dues (only 50 dollars a year), renters insurance ( 20k for the 150/152, 40k for 172, 80k for twin and 182), my own gear(flight bag, garmin 396,headset etc) Now remember out of that 270 probably 100 of it was flying with my buddy so it could of cost me a lot more. But then again if we are talking about ways you can make it more affordable using part 61 so SP is definitely a good way. As far as housing goes I lived with a relative close by. But we skypark does have special agreements with local hotels that gets you way discounted rates due to our foreign flight school guys that come over to build time. And theres also room to sleep in the tiki bar or movie theater if you want. Every summer theres at least 3 or 4 people that live at the airport. If you didn't read my other posts we have a movie theater (every seat is a reclining lounger), two hot tubs, and a tiki bar for members

As far as logging all time during SP. One person was under the hood basically the entire flight. We would simulate 0/0 takeoffs by having PF tracking center line using DG for directional practice. We would also practice flying ILS needles to the ground( A requirement in Europe) but of course we both wouldn't log the time if the PF took the foggles off. And no we both didn't log the approaches only the PF logged the approaches. This actually really worked as well as a educational experience because we have a few former skypark flight instructors that flight for the airlines that still come around and they would come up wit us at times to show us knew skill building exercises under the hood.

I stand corrected it is Traverse City:crazy:. Tom Brady does have a great program going up there. Pretty much everyone in this area heads up there for their multi due to a overzealous multi DPE around here. Plus you just can't beat the price up there for your multi add on. I am actually planning on going up there to add my seaplane rating for 1000 bucks. Just something neat to do.

As far as renting the twin. The only requirement that Dan(Airport Owner) has is 25 hours in same type and checkoff from one the multi instructors. Which works out really well because Tom Brady flies the exact model of twin that we have here. So basically what you do is go there get 10 hours up there, then come back here and offer to sit right seat SP for someone who already has the 25 hours so you can get to that magic 25 number. Then you take a quick ride with one the multi instructors and he sign you off and your free to rent it. The only bad thing here is even if you get your MEI its hard to instruct here because Dan requires MEI to have 1000TT 250 MULTI. So the only guy who really instructs in our twin anymore is a Corporate pilot who flies a King Air and does the multi instruction here on the side. Other than that though you only need your CFI/CFII to instruct in the rest of the planes. There's no TT requirement for that. We all hold individual CFI liability insurance. Dan self insures the planes because they are all paid off for.

Yes we still have the Fish Festival and the Woolybear which are two of the largest festivals in the state. But I make sure to be out of town when they are going on. :nana2:

 

[Douglas]

All other things being equal at an interview, would you hire the guy with only his CFI-I, a guy who has his MEI (with only 30 hours), or the guy with all three certs and well over the minimum mark in multi-engine time to boot? Even for CFI's things are beginning to become THAT competitive.

i might be missing something, but why is the guy from the FBO limited to NOT having his II or MEI (or all three ratings, how you put it). Is he not allowed to have all three when he gets done with the FBO, before he applies?

I also don't see why multi time would really matter in a CFI interview. This is an instructing job, not a flying job. Dual given wins, not I was student pilot in a big bad seminole.
My first CFI interview didn't include a single question about multi-time and no I didn't do my training there, I walked in or flew in from the street. He knew I didn't have my MEI, so what was the point of asking. I was personable and he told me I started in two weeks. Again, there was nothing about multi time in the interview then or the interview for my current CFI job.

I think it is reaching when the big benefit i am hearing is that it will give you a leg up in your job search for a CFI spot. In my situations that has been the furthest from the truth.
A good track record and being personable will take you the furthest in the interview. IMO. But there could be some out there that got the job because they were MEIs, I still though would doubt that training in a seminole would do anything for you.
Being a II really gets the employers attention because there are far more instrument students then multi-add-on students (in most places).
Plus, if you are not an MEI yet, the school is going to make revenue off of you doing your MEI in their airplane.

 

[Douglas]

You only have @ 35 hours of SP time at ATP.

I was just told in this thread that the cross country time building at ATP is done with SPs so the instructor is not there babying the students and also cuts down on costs.

How do you only need 35 hours of cross country time building?

I personally think this time should be solo. It is a great confidence builder to make decisions without mulling in over with a second certificate.

also, you referred to mshunter as a dude. I am pretty sure it is a dudette. As in Ms. Hunter. Just the impression that I got.

 

[jhugz]

I did all of my training at Skypark also. Hey John it's James. Anywhoo I have first hand experience with the traverse city experience. It cost me 1900 dollars for the course, checkride fee, food, lodging, and gas to drive 7 hours each way. You can't do it cheaper and he can't have a better course.

 

[DL31082]

Being an MEI did not help me one bit when it came to getting my instructing job. Specially since I did not have the TT for the insurance company to insure me in our twin, which is not a seminole. My boss really wanted another II. What did help was that we had 2 other instructors from ATP and the owner was highly impressed with both of them. I just got lucky that these two instructors where good instructors instead of bad ones. Hopefully I have enough hours now to instruct in our twin, but we have to submit the paperwork again.

Everyone has to figure what works for them when it comes to flight training. I went to ATP and did not fail any checkrides, but I studied 24/7 and was in the sim whenever I could be practicing. We can talk about which route is better until the world ends and nobody will agree. People have to find what works best for them.

 

[mshunter]

I was just told in this thread that the cross country time building at ATP is done with SPs so the instructor is not there babying the students and also cuts down on costs.

How do you only need 35 hours of cross country time building?

I personally think this time should be solo. It is a great confidence builder to make decisions without mulling in over with a second certificate.

also, you referred to mshunter as a dude. I am pretty sure it is a dudette. As in Ms. Hunter. Just the impression that I got.

#1, not a dudette. M=mike, s=first initial of last name, hunter is other part of last name.

#2, saftey pilot time is very valuble. it teaches you how to work as a team in a cockpit enviroment(read "put up with someone who is an idot").

#3, solo in an airplane with an emergency is dangerous. especially when the ink on your cert is wet. so as a confedence builder, too much is a dangerous thing. there is no such thing as an old bold pilot.

 

[Inverted25]

Hey James hope your job search is going well. And I agree you just have to find what works best for you. Because when it comes down to it 121 and 135 operators dont care where you got your certificates. All they look at is your time and your letters of reccomendation.

 

[jhugz]

#2, saftey pilot time is very valuble. it teaches you how to work as a team in a cockpit enviroment(read "put up with someone who is an idot").

I do have some safety pilot time however it is not at all very valuable. That may be what ATP uses to sucker you in but really it is an absolute waste in a 172. Also CRM isn't practiced because one should be doing all the flying and the radio's while the other is looking outside for other traffic ONLY.

#3, solo in an airplane with an emergency is dangerous. especially when the ink on your cert is wet. so as a confedence builder, too much is a dangerous thing. there is no such thing as an old bold pilot.

It is much more dangerous when there is an emergency with two equal skilled pilots in the airplane. If there is an instructor and a student obviously the instructor will handle the emergency. Two Private pilot's with 100 hrs fighting over the controls instead of dealing with the emergency at hand. Disaster IMHO

 

[jhugz]

Hey James hope your job search is going well.

Not to shabby. Have a couple phone interviews coming up and I am going to attend all of the Private Pilot GS to see if I can pick up any students. (Hopefully Dan will hire me then)

 

[Captain_Bob]

I do have some safety pilot time however it is not at all very valuable. That may be what ATP uses to sucker you in but really it is an absolute waste in a 172. Also CRM isn't practiced because one should be doing all the flying and the radio's while the other is looking outside for other traffic ONLY.

ATP does not do it in a 172... they do it in a crew environment in a complex multi, on extended coast to coast cross country flights, into busy class B airspace, through some of the nations busiest airspace, over mountains, into weather that is different from students primary training area, and only after they complete a course which details the benefits of SP time and how to use it to properly learn from both seats. Your idea of what each pilot "should" be doing is simply your opinion and based on that opinion, I can see why you don't feel SP time is beneficial.

It is much more dangerous when there is an emergency with two equal skilled pilots in the airplane. If there is an instructor and a student obviously the instructor will handle the emergency. Two Private pilot's with 100 hrs fighting over the controls instead of dealing with the emergency at hand. Disaster IMHO

I understand your opinion... but simply following the FARS (61.51(e)(1)(iii)) will clear up your misconception of it being unsafe and/or a disaster in waiting... and it is "obvious" who will handle the emergency.

One of the requirements of logging SP time is that it is clearly defined prior to flight, who will be the PF and who will be the NFP. Typically the NFP will declare that they are the "acting" PIC and will make the decisions for the safety of the flight in normal and emergency situations. In that way... the sole manipulator of the controls will also be able to log the PIC time. But, if that conversation has not taken place, or if both pilots are not in total agreement... then no one should be up there logging safety pilot time due to the fact that a scenario like you described could pop up.

Hope that helps...

Bob

 

[GlenA]

i might be missing something, but why is the guy from the FBO limited to NOT having his II or MEI (or all three ratings, how you put it). Is he not allowed to have all three when he gets done with the FBO, before he applies?

I also don't see why multi time would really matter in a CFI interview. This is an instructing job, not a flying job. Dual given wins, not I was student pilot in a big bad seminole.
My first CFI interview didn't include a single question about multi-time and no I didn't do my training there, I walked in or flew in from the street. He knew I didn't have my MEI, so what was the point of asking. I was personable and he told me I started in two weeks. Again, there was nothing about multi time in the interview then or the interview for my current CFI job.

I think it is reaching when the big benefit i am hearing is that it will give you a leg up in your job search for a CFI spot. In my situations that has been the furthest from the truth.
A good track record and being personable will take you the furthest in the interview. IMO. But there could be some out there that got the job because they were MEIs, I still though would doubt that training in a seminole would do anything for you.
Being a II really gets the employers attention because there are far more instrument students then multi-add-on students (in most places).
Plus, if you are not an MEI yet, the school is going to make revenue off of you doing your MEI in their airplane.

First off, you seemed to have selectively ignored the part where I said ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL. I never said someone from an FBO couldn't have an MEI, don't put words in my mouth. I agree with you that being personable and enthusiastic definitely are big big items when getting a job. Dual given is important too but not the end all be all for a job either. Being an MEI DID play a role in my getting a job. It also helped to have more time in a multi engine aircraft. It also helped that they had many employees from the same flight school I went to that they were happy with. It probably didn't hurt that I was a prior military officer either. ALL I AM TRYING TO SAY IS THAT IT DOESNT HURT TO HAVE SOMETHING ON YOUR RESUME THAT THE OTHER GUY DOESN'T! I AM NOT saying that going to an FBO is a waste of time and money. All I am trying to say is that going to a larger flight school is not a waste of time or money either. Many of the Nay-sayers have ONLY gone to an FBO and never experienced the larger schools. And many of the nay-sayers about FBO's have only gone to larger schools. I've gone to both and experienced both and made my choice, and I stand by it.

And it is now time for me to drop this thread because it is sunny outside and time to go fly!

 

[Inverted25]

I wish you the best of course. But at the Christmas party last night a few of the instructors made it very clear that they would leave if you came. Not sure what you did to piss them off? I must not of been around when whatever happened happened? So unfortuanly I dont think Dan will risk losing his two main instructors for you. Best advice I can give is offor a peace offoring haha. Part of it is you need to try and come off as more professional when you there. Your rep there isnt great right now. Attending the ground school might be a good idea. Show that you really want to do it and maybe you can change some minds. Me and Logan will be sitting in at the Instrument ground school on Tuesdays since Bowers is teaching and hes helping us both with our CFII. The other issue I can see is for once there might be too many instructors. Dan has already told both me and Logan that we were hired for summer since we both are taking our checkrides in April and he likes the fact we are doing are CFI with Doug. And even though there is a bunch of students that will be coming through theres gonna be 5 full time instructors this summer. Not sure what kind of hours are going to be able. Because of that I joined CAP out of lorain county. I know the Squardon Commander there and he told me that he lost his only CFI so I'm going to be doing all their Young Eagle programs. Plus I will be one their main mission pilots. Now this is a unpaid position so you probally wouldn't be interested in doing such a thing but for me its free 182 time plus looks good on resume. And I figure I'll meet alot of pilots doing this and they will be needing BFR and IPC.:nana2: Another job lead I have for you is pipeline patrol out of rochester new york. They start accepting resumes in August. Season runs from OCT-APR and you make bout 20k. PM for details.