multi time?

now lets do the average instructor at $45 an hour (a real bargin). and we'll figure on 135 hours in that multi-airplane, and 60 hours of dual given, it!

Dual received?


i really hope that you calling $45 a bargain was not sarcasm, but the truth as it reads.
I don't know where you are in your training or if you are a CFI, but I can tell you that I am worth MORE than $50 when I sit inside a twin. I am worth it but I can not charge that because I am not in charge of pricing.

If you don't feel like the instruction you are getting is worth it, you are probably not getting very good instruction. You might be, but it doesn't sound like it.

Also, if you didn't want to run off to a regional, why would you go this route?
Regionals are the only route this could possible benefit when people are looking for pulse mins.
 
Someone is greedy. Everyone is worth more than $50, but I will get more money and more business if I went for $30.
 
i am confused, is this price supposed to be the ATP price or the FBO price?

If it is the ATP price, where is the other 22,000 they are asking for?
If this is the FBO price, isn't $22,000 worth not going to ATP.

this price was for the multi time only at an FBO. dosent include many things. read the whole post. as for my certs-- CFI/CFII/MEI, and the $45 an hour is an average cost across the country at an average FBO.
 
Are you knocking FREE room and board? They live too far away for me to do that but i thought this was about keeping cost to min. anyway.



You do know why we knock ATP because you do in a twin when a single will do just fine.
Yes you have 135 hours of twin time, your resume is not laced in gold. The seminole is no harder to fly then an arrow.
Even with the twin time you will still need to Instruct to build Total time, as it think it should be. I needed an one extra hour while i was there and it cost me $300.00 not $240.00.

ATP doesn't have an inside track or thought of anything that everybody else who does twin training stuff.
The money saving is in getting rid of an engine.

o.k. i see your point. but what it all comes down to at then end of the day is what the insurance company wants. if you dont have what they want, you wont get hired. w/out the twin time, that first real job flying something other than a 172, is hard to come buy. even flying something as simple as a P-68, most companies want 250 multi PIC. so it gets you out of the gate a little farther ahead than if you build hours with SE airplane. ATP may not have the inside track, but the do have the multi-time advantage. as for buying more multi time, do the hour break down when you dont have to buy more time. if i remember right, it works out to be about 170 an hour (for the instruction and x-countries averaged out). and yes, when you ef up, or your instructor ef's up, it can get quite expensive.


as for knocking free room and board, not sure what you mean. i applaud the room you get at the fast track program. still waiting to see someone break it down at a different price though.

and one more thing, i have 500 dual given, 830 total. I know my resume isn't laced in gold, and i never said it was. i dont expect much for the hours i have accumulated in 12 months. my multi time is now at 166, much farther ahead than if I time built in a single eng. when i walk into the FBO w/ a twin, and an MEI cert., i will be more likely to get the multi student than someone who walks in with the same certs., and only 30-50 ME time.

as far as being worth more than $50, i agree. but the nature of the buisness is such that we are forced into this wage. if we charged more, flight training would be out of reach of the common man. i would love to instruct exclusively in an SR22, and charge $100 an hour. but the demegrophic just isnt there.

one last thing. i beg to differ about the arrow being the same as a seminole. you have twice the systems to manage. it may not fly that much different, but it is twice the workload. that is why insurance requirements are different for SE work, than ME work. low/slow/engine out with lack of eng. out experince = Vmc roll.
 
Someone is greedy. Everyone is worth more than $50, but I will get more money and more business if I went for $30.

Greedy?
The risks involved...
The experience I have...
The Liability of my student...
The ability to teach...

Instructing in a twin is not the same as instructing in a Cessna single engine. You will soon find that out.

and at the end of the day my friend who, doesn't have a GED makes more laying tile.

No, what I do in an airplane is worth more than laying tile.
You might think I have a pretty high horse but anybody can lay tile, I've spent years getting here. Don't sell yourself short.

Charging what you are worth doesn't mean that you won't be booked.
When I charged $50 an hour last year, before i moved, I was busier than I am now. As I said before, at my current location I don't have a choice at the cost of dual. Dual is $35 multi - and dang bargain.
:bandit:
 
One of my former students just finished her training from zero to CFII, let me break down the cost of her training. This is very standard for many of the students I have seen; by the way.

ce-152 - 230hrs x $90/hr = $20,700
ce-172rg - 20hrs x $135/hr = $2700
dual air - 140 hrs x $50/hr = $7000
dual ground - 30 hrs x $50/hr = $1500
housing - $400 x12 months = $4800
cfi/cfii = $7000
0 multi

My school charges $250/hr for twin.

In realistic terms it will cost about the same to train at my school as it would at atp. The difference (I believe) is in the better quality instructors and customer service. I speak from experience, I did my private training at the school I currently work at and I also went to atp.
 
I pay $85/hr for a old 172 and $28/hr for the instructor.
We also have a 172S for only $95 with a GPS in it.

I don't think you can get a rate like that at ATP:nana2:
 
o.k. i see your point. but what it all comes down to at then end of the day is what the insurance company wants. if you dont have what they want, you wont get hired. w/out the twin time, that first real job flying something other than a 172, is hard to come buy. even flying something as simple as a P-68, most companies want 250 multi PIC. so it gets you out of the gate a little farther ahead than if you build hours with SE airplane. ATP may not have the inside track, but the do have the multi-time advantage. as for buying more multi time, do the hour break down when you dont have to buy more time. if i remember right, it works out to be about 170 an hour (for the instruction and x-countries averaged out). and yes, when you ef up, or your instructor ef's up, it can get quite expensive.


as for knocking free room and board, not sure what you mean. i applaud the room you get at the fast track program. still waiting to see someone break it down at a different price though.

and one more thing, i have 500 dual given, 830 total. I know my resume isn't laced in gold, and i never said it was. i dont expect much for the hours i have accumulated in 12 months. my multi time is now at 166, much farther ahead than if I time built in a single eng. when i walk into the FBO w/ a twin, and an MEI cert., i will be more likely to get the multi student than someone who walks in with the same certs., and only 30-50 ME time.

as far as being worth more than $50, i agree. but the nature of the buisness is such that we are forced into this wage. if we charged more, flight training would be out of reach of the common man. i would love to instruct exclusively in an SR22, and charge $100 an hour. but the demegrophic just isnt there.

one last thing. i beg to differ about the arrow being the same as a seminole. you have twice the systems to manage. it may not fly that much different, but it is twice the workload. that is why insurance requirements are different for SE work, than ME work. low/slow/engine out with lack of eng. out experince = Vmc roll.

Okay, you caught me, I had no idea what a p.68 was and had to look it up :)
Sorry if my posts sounded grumpy, they read that way but I wasn't when I wrote them.

" as for buying more multi time, do the hour break down when you dont have to buy more time. if i remember right, it works out to be about 170 an hour (for the instruction and x-countries averaged out). "

Are you talking about us at the FBO needing more total time to get all of our certificates? You are right that we do need build an extra 15 hours of pic twin time for the MEI that you already incurred, but we get around that by doing our CFII training in a twin and not a single. So the training for the II/MEI is in the twin which usually takes about 15 hours of training. I know ATP uses this method, like i said they don't have an inside track, it is just smart to do it this way so we all should.
Besides that 15 hours of pic time, I am not sure what else we would need that you already have. I could be missing something though.
oh, and Also, ATP has students do a private pilot add-on, that is something we don't have.
Also, we could get into the 141/61 debate. I know ATP is 61.
Under our 141 syllabus, we are able to to get a student Multi and single engine commercial instrument in 190 hours. Then they do their CFI. Then they do their II and MEI in the twin at 15 hours.

So I think part of your argument was that we don't double dip on somethings so that causes us to actually charge the student more money and time by having him in a single then making him sit in a twin when he could have just sat in a twin for one price. I think I have given examples that show that is not the case.

170 hours of x-c time?
I am not quite following the significance of 170 hours.

Also, do the instructors ride with the students on the cross countries?
That is what is sounds like I might be wrong but if they do I disagree with that practice for two reasons.
1. The student needs to build confidence and stand on his own two legs.
2. it is a whole lot of unnecessary money spent on dual received.

"when i walk into the FBO w/ a twin, and an MEI cert., i will be more likely to get the multi student than someone who walks in with the same certs., and only 30-50 ME time."
I had the exact opposite experience at my places.
They always went to the most senior flight instructor first and if he was busy then they would go to who ever was not busy. In fact the girl at my flight school that was a fast track grad never got one, to be fair she was only their for three months before she moved. (she didn't move because she got a flying job, but the hopes of one in a different state). You know come to think of it, she maybe was not an MEI. I don't remember that long ago, I just know if she would have gotten one i would have remembered since she was the noob.

"if we charged more, flight training would be out of reach of the common man."
I was thinking about this last night. The common man is already out of the picture. That is what I decided at least for my current location. All of my students that are leisure students are already filthy rich, they can afford it and most of the time expect to pay much more an hour for the instruction. The poor people I instruct, are the people just like me. I had loans and planned on making money back on this investment someday.

I think we are at a point that common poor pleasure flyers are out.
I am hopeful that LSA will become more popular though.

have a good morning.
 
For what it is worth and to put things in perspective, when I went to ATP in 1997 I paid $20,500. I left in three months to the day with CFI/II/MEI and 230 hours of multi. We ran some quick and dirty numbers and figured we ended up spending about $47 an hour for the Seminole (not including instructor, room/board, hotels, etc.) I think Comair Academy was charging somewhere around $36,000 for their program. Back then ATP's bread and butter was, well, ATP rides. The Pro Pilot Program guys were there to mainly move airplanes around.

At the time most airlines required 200 multi and 1200-1500 total. 1500 to 2000 was about average with 300-500 multi. AWAC required 2500 total. Skywest was about the lowest with 1000/100. Most folks instructed two to three years before getting hired.
 
I pay $85/hr for a old 172 and $28/hr for the instructor.
We also have a 172S for only $95 with a GPS in it.

I don't think you can get a rate like that at ATP:nana2:
Hmmm... When I went through the program several years ago... they offered 172's with GPS and an instructor for $75/hr for time building to meet the ACPP mins.

Edit: I just called them and they are now $100/hr for 172's w/GPS and an instructor. So... Yeah... I think you can get a rate like that at ATP, better actually. :nana2:

;)

Bob
 
Hmmm... When I went through the program several years ago... they offered 172's with GPS and an instructor for $75/hr for time building to meet the ACPP mins.

Edit: I just called them and they are now $100/hr for 172's w/GPS and an instructor. So... Yeah... I think you can get a rate like that at ATP, better actually. :nana2:

;)

Bob


Your kidding me? $100 with the instructor!!!!? Have to admit I'm pretty suprised by that :eek:
 
That is very impressive.


Edit: so how much and how do the instructors at ATP get paid? Is it per flight hour or do they get a set amount of money per month no matter how much they fly?
 
That is very impressive.


Edit: so how much and how do the instructors at ATP get paid? Is it per flight hour or do they get a set amount of money per month no matter how much they fly?

I'm pretty sure it is a flat $2000 per month and bonus' based on students passing checkrides on first attempts. Maybe like $100 bonus but I can't remember if that's right. I'm sure someone will correct me. ATP then would take $300 out of the paycheck for housing.
 
I pay $85/hr for a old 172 and $28/hr for the instructor.
We also have a 172S for only $95 with a GPS in it.

I don't think you can get a rate like that at ATP:nana2:

Yeah, ATP DEFINITELY beats the $95 rate with GPS, $5 more and you have an instructor in the plane with you.

I don't know anywhere you can get an instructor for $5, do you? :nana2:
 
Yeah, ATP DEFINITELY beats the $95 rate with GPS, $5 more and you have an instructor in the plane with you.

I don't know anywhere you can get an instructor for $5, do you? :nana2:

Only after you put a 2,000 deposit down for your ACPP course, so if you want to consider that you have to amortize the 2k in the hours as well which adds another $23/hr to the price if you assume 85 hours.
 
where i teach in a multi (seneca1---eeewwwwwwww!!!) i also am limited to $35 an hour. i have about 30 hours of dual given in that airplane, and yes, it is much different than teaching in a single. i think it is much eaiser due to the fact that the students already know how to fly. i like the fact that there are so many opnions out there that are now becoming validated.

mission accomplished.
 
Okay, you caught me, I had no idea what a p.68 was and had to look it up :)
Sorry if my posts sounded grumpy, they read that way but I wasn't when I wrote them.

" as for buying more multi time, do the hour break down when you dont have to buy more time. if i remember right, it works out to be about 170 an hour (for the instruction and x-countries averaged out). "

Are you talking about us at the FBO needing more total time to get all of our certificates? You are right that we do need build an extra 15 hours of pic twin time for the MEI that you already incurred, but we get around that by doing our CFII training in a twin and not a single. So the training for the II/MEI is in the twin which usually takes about 15 hours of training. I know ATP uses this method, like i said they don't have an inside track, it is just smart to do it this way so we all should.
Besides that 15 hours of pic time, I am not sure what else we would need that you already have. I could be missing something though.
oh, and Also, ATP has students do a private pilot add-on, that is something we don't have.
Also, we could get into the 141/61 debate. I know ATP is 61.
Under our 141 syllabus, we are able to to get a student Multi and single engine commercial instrument in 190 hours. Then they do their CFI. Then they do their II and MEI in the twin at 15 hours.

So I think part of your argument was that we don't double dip on somethings so that causes us to actually charge the student more money and time by having him in a single then making him sit in a twin when he could have just sat in a twin for one price. I think I have given examples that show that is not the case.

170 hours of x-c time?
I am not quite following the significance of 170 hours.

Also, do the instructors ride with the students on the cross countries?
That is what is sounds like I might be wrong but if they do I disagree with that practice for two reasons.
1. The student needs to build confidence and stand on his own two legs.
2. it is a whole lot of unnecessary money spent on dual received.

"when i walk into the FBO w/ a twin, and an MEI cert., i will be more likely to get the multi student than someone who walks in with the same certs., and only 30-50 ME time."
I had the exact opposite experience at my places.
They always went to the most senior flight instructor first and if he was busy then they would go to who ever was not busy. In fact the girl at my flight school that was a fast track grad never got one, to be fair she was only their for three months before she moved. (she didn't move because she got a flying job, but the hopes of one in a different state). You know come to think of it, she maybe was not an MEI. I don't remember that long ago, I just know if she would have gotten one i would have remembered since she was the noob.

"if we charged more, flight training would be out of reach of the common man."
I was thinking about this last night. The common man is already out of the picture. That is what I decided at least for my current location. All of my students that are leisure students are already filthy rich, they can afford it and most of the time expect to pay much more an hour for the instruction. The poor people I instruct, are the people just like me. I had loans and planned on making money back on this investment someday.

I think we are at a point that common poor pleasure flyers are out.
I am hopeful that LSA will become more popular though.

have a good morning.


woops, sorry bout that, i didnt mean 170hrs, i meant $170 an hour. instructors don't ride w/the students. students team up and fly as pilot/co-pilot (saftey pilot, it's all supposed to be under the hood). id love to stay and chat some more, but i gotta get so i can teach x-country flight planning/regs.
 
Does the multi-time honestly matter anymore? With the current market I would say no. As for price, you can find a lot cheaper rates at FBO's. The biggest selling point for me would be "dispatch" telling me where I'm going to take all my flights when I'm paying THEM thousands of dollars. You only get to have fun like this once, make it count! I love my job, but I'd rather be out checking out that new airport with a friend for breakfast...
 
Does the multi-time honestly matter anymore? With the current market I would say no. As for price, you can find a lot cheaper rates at FBO's. The biggest selling point for me would be "dispatch" telling me where I'm going to take all my flights when I'm paying THEM thousands of dollars. You only get to have fun like this once, make it count! I love my job, but I'd rather be out checking out that new airport with a friend for breakfast...

Does multi-time matter anymore?? As hiring minimums go up so are the minimums for the multi-time. A lot of places where hiring at 500/50. Now, at least Mesaba, they are asking for 600/100. With more and more 121 guys on the street even 100 isn't going to be competitive.
 
Back
Top