multi time?

mshunter

Well-Known Member
just been reading through the posts here about ATP beeing more expensive than other places. most people who say "the FBO route is cheaper" don't take into consideration the multi hours you end up with when you are done with ATP, nor the fact that the CSEL is an add-on rating when your done. I went to ATP @ PHX, and finished with 233 total, of that, 135 was multi. take into account, that you GET A TON OF MULTI TIME. lets do some math. basic math.

figure on a seminole/dutchess at a typical rate of about $240 an hour, as that seems to be the average going rate around the country. some places more, some less. now lets do the average instructor at $45 an hour (a real bargin). and we'll figure on 135 hours in that multi-airplane, and 60 hours of dual given, because thats about what i ended up with, considering sim time, and air time. never mind the ground instruction i had, for things like passing the IRA, inst. procedures, and general knowledge, which a wild guess would actually end up beeing more like 120-150 (IRA ground school was 1 week for 6 hours a day). oh yeah, renting the sim too (and never mind all the free time i got to practice procedures) which was 40 hours worth and we'll go conservative at $65 an hour w/out instructor

$240x135= $32400
$45X60=$2700
$65x40=$2600

grand total w/out the books & jepps which are included**** $37,770.

Did i mention that this also includes the flight time needed for your commercial and MEI training and check rides? woops looks like i forgot those, oh well, because it's still cheaper than what you'd pay at an FBO. Thats what most people are forgetting here. they forget that the price includes the "other stuff" as well. so if you do the math, do ALL the math. ATP runs a great program, as long as you are a motivated, self-starter, not some punk kid with a bunch of money to burn. if you do what your told, and come prepared, it works well. I made it all the way through w/out busting a checkride. I had some of the hardest DPE's that phx could throw at me. I only had to discontinue one check ride because I let my nerves get to me, not because i didn't know the answers. they will give you the tools to succeed, you just have to use them and apply yourself. there are some bad apples there, they are at every school. but there is no reason why you can't make it on your own, with the help of room mates, other instructors, etc.

any comments/questions are welcome. if i can go from wrenching on cars at a dealership:crazy:, to flying airplanes for a living, than anyone can do it!
 

jhugz

#lighttwin Mafia
just been reading through the posts here about ATP beeing more expensive than other places. most people who say "the FBO route is cheaper" don't take into consideration the multi hours you end up with when you are done with ATP, nor the fact that the CSEL is an add-on rating when your done. I went to ATP @ PHX, and finished with 233 total, of that, 135 was multi. take into account, that you GET A TON OF MULTI TIME. lets do some math. basic math.

figure on a seminole/dutchess at a typical rate of about $240 an hour, as that seems to be the average going rate around the country. some places more, some less. now lets do the average instructor at $45 an hour (a real bargin). and we'll figure on 135 hours in that multi-airplane, and 60 hours of dual given, because thats about what i ended up with, considering sim time, and air time. never mind the ground instruction i had, for things like passing the IRA, inst. procedures, and general knowledge, which a wild guess would actually end up beeing more like 120-150 (IRA ground school was 1 week for 6 hours a day). oh yeah, renting the sim too (and never mind all the free time i got to practice procedures) which was 40 hours worth and we'll go conservative at $65 an hour w/out instructor

$240x135= $32400
$45X60=$2700
$65x40=$2600

grand total w/out the books & jepps which are included**** $37,770.

Did i mention that this also includes the flight time needed for your commercial and MEI training and check rides? woops looks like i forgot those, oh well, because it's still cheaper than what you'd pay at an FBO. Thats what most people are forgetting here. they forget that the price includes the "other stuff" as well. so if you do the math, do ALL the math. ATP runs a great program, as long as you are a motivated, self-starter, not some punk kid with a bunch of money to burn. if you do what your told, and come prepared, it works well. I made it all the way through w/out busting a checkride. I had some of the hardest DPE's that phx could throw at me. I only had to discontinue one check ride because I let my nerves get to me, not because i didn't know the answers. they will give you the tools to succeed, you just have to use them and apply yourself. there are some bad apples there, they are at every school. but there is no reason why you can't make it on your own, with the help of room mates, other instructors, etc.

any comments/questions are welcome. if i can go from wrenching on cars at a dealership:crazy:, to flying airplanes for a living, than anyone can do it!
I went from PPL-CFII for about 27K...the FBO route is much cheaper.
 

will_fly_for_bandwith

Well-Known Member
From the atp site
Airline Career Pilot Program Price Change

Effective for Programs Starting on or after January 1, 2009
Airline Career Pilot Program Price Reduced by $2,500 to $54,995
25 Hours of Multi-Engine Replaced with 25 Hours of Single-Engine
ATP is reducing the price of the Airline Career Pilot Program by $2,500 to $54,995. By staging more single-engine aircraft at more flight training centers starting in January and February of 2009, ATP is able to replace 25 hours of multi-engine crew cross-country with 25 hours of single-engine crew cross country.

WTF !!

Just what I need... more single time.
 

Clocks

Well-Known Member
Well I've never seen a job posting for "135 hours multi". They should have limited it to 100 multi and reduced the cost a while ago.
 

MFT1Air

Well-Known Member
Just looking at one FBO where the rate for a multi fluctuates between $140 and $185 an hour, and instructor time is $35-$45 an hour with the same continuity of instructor,your argument just went null and void.
 

wrxpilot

New Member
The days of walking into regional X airline with 100 ME and a few hundred hrs of TT are done, quite possibly for a very long time.
 

mshunter

Well-Known Member
Just looking at one FBO where the rate for a multi fluctuates between $140 and $185 an hour, and instructor time is $35-$45 an hour with the same continuity of instructor,your argument just went null and void.
how is using an average rate around the country make my "argument" null and void? this wasnt meant to be an argument anyways. it was stating facts. why dont you provide the link to this school that has a multi for as cheap as $145 an hour? because i to have found multi time as scheap as $148 an hour, but you have to by it in 100 hour blocks = $14800. and now you have tp worry about availibility, which i had few problems with at ATP.
 

mshunter

Well-Known Member
The days of walking into regional X airline with 100 ME and a few hundred hrs of TT are done, quite possibly for a very long time.
as for the regional airline route, i think i'd rather go back to turning wrenches than make $19k a year. anyone who would put their skill set out there for that kind of pay-stepping stone job or not-should be excluded from the industry. you are bringing the QOL down for everyone around you.
 

wrxpilot

New Member
as for the regional airline route, i think i'd rather go back to turning wrenches than make $19k a year. anyone who would put their skill set out there for that kind of pay-stepping stone job or not-should be excluded from the industry. you are bringing the QOL down for everyone around you.
I agree, so what's the point of paying $55k for certs that you can get for $30k or less?
 

SFCC/UND

Well-Known Member
I think it's has to do how fast you want to be done. I did the FBO route and finished all my license around $30 thousand ish, in around a year and a half. ATP and other flight schools, which cost a lot more will try and get you done in a couple months.
 

jhugz

#lighttwin Mafia
I think it's has to do how fast you want to be done. I did the FBO route and finished all my license around $30 thousand ish, in around a year and a half. ATP and other flight schools, which cost a lot more will try and get you done in a couple months.
I started about 1 year and a half ago and lets say I do pay to get my MEI for 3k because I need the multi PIC...i then spent 30k
 

Goldmember

Well-Known Member
Everybody here at the flight school I work at that went to ATP and dropped that money wishes they hadn't. They spent 20k more there than they would have here. Plus, that multi time you get here is YOUR time, not spent sitting there watching another guy fly the plane. You'll never win the argument ATP is cheaper, period.
 

mshunter

Well-Known Member
cessna 172 @ $110 for 100 hours $11000
piper seminole @ $240 for 135 hours $32400
instruction @ $45 an hour for 230 hours (including ground) $10350
books and materials $1000 (conservative)
written tests @ $90 x 7 $630
checkrides @ $400 x 8 $3200
Sim @ $65 w/out instructor for 60 hrs. $3900

PRICE DOES NOT INCLUDE HOTELS AT X-COUNTRY DESTINATIONS, ORE HOUSING WHILE IN SCHOOL(some of us don't live w/mommy and daddy)

this is what i walked away from ATP with in terms of hours, but not cost. i also have used the average price across the country for rates. cost if i were to have gone to the *average* fbo, provided they have a multi engine airplane (as you all know, most of them dont, including mine) would have been an *average* of just over $61k, ($61580 to be exact). ATP's current price is at $59,995, ($60k). i still dont see where people see that when you break down the hours, its cheaper to go the FBO route (and i work at one)? someone wanna break it down different? remember, we are talking about multi hours, not the cost of the certificates. i do agree, i could have done it cheaper via the FBO route, had i not gotten all the multi hours. but we are not talking cert. cost, we are talking about certs./multi hours. lets see it broken down differently, ANYONE, PLEASE!!!


this topic was not ment to be an argument, but a debate. so please back up your info with something.
 

mshunter

Well-Known Member
I started about 1 year and a half ago and lets say I do pay to get my MEI for 3k because I need the multi PIC...i then spent 30k

im not saying your wrong, i just want to see a break down of hours/money spent. please include what types of airplanes you flew.
 

wrxpilot

New Member
i still dont see where people see that when you break down the hours, its cheaper to go the FBO route (and i work at one)?
Who cares how many multi hrs you paid for? Get it done as cheap as possible, then get paid to build multi time as a MEI. I paid for about 4 multi hrs. My employers paid me for the other 496.
 

Douglas

Old School KSUX
(some of us don't live w/mommy and daddy)
Are you knocking FREE room and board? They live too far away for me to do that but i thought this was about keeping cost to min. anyway.

i do agree, i could have done it cheaper via the FBO route, had i not gotten all the multi hours. but we are not talking cert. cost, we are talking about certs./multi hours. lets see it broken down differently, ANYONE, PLEASE!!!
You really could have mentioned that in your original post...
You do know why we knock ATP because you do in a twin when a single will do just fine.
Yes you have 135 hours of twin time, your resume is not laced in gold. The seminole is no harder to fly then an arrow.
Even with the twin time you will still need to Instruct to build Total time, as it think it should be. You will learn a lot in the first two hundred hours of instructing somebody else. So no, I don't knock ATP for the price, but the reason for the price, the twin time you covet so much.
also, talking about simple math, I needed an one extra hour while i was there and it cost me $300.00 not $240.00.

ATP doesn't have an inside track or thought of anything that everybody else who does twin training stuff.
The money saving is in getting rid of an engine.
 

Douglas

Old School KSUX
$240x135= $32400
$45X60=$2700
$65x40=$2600

grand total w/out the books & jepps which are included**** $37,770.
i am confused, is this price supposed to be the ATP price or the FBO price?

If it is the ATP price, where is the other 22,000 they are asking for?
If this is the FBO price, isn't $22,000 worth not going to ATP.
 
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