KA200 Job Offer

[falconvalley]

Here's my take on this: the PIC is rated to fly with passengers, with the right seat empty. For some reason, they want a pilot in the right seat. You get nothing out of this. Yes a few hours of seeing how it works as a non-crewmember are great, but not worth your time IMO. I did this as a click-jockey in a KA200 for a year, but GOT PAID TO DO IT, because they needed someone for insurance reasons. If this company needs a second pilot for some reason, they SHOULD PAY PERIOD-->.

 

[MFT1Air]

I did this as a click-jockey in a KA200 for a year, but GOT PAID TO DO IT, because they needed someone for insurance reasons. If this company needs a second pilot for some reason, they SHOULD PAY PERIOD-->.

:yeahthat:

 

[TangoBravo]

Just wait, two months from now, this very Citation seat will be warmed by someone who pays them to get worthless time in their logs.

This is all incredible. Do you guys still remember the ads in the back of AOPA pilot magazine? "$8995 for 100 hours of Copilot Time"... "Get the times you need to land that job". Some spanky freight operator out of Timbuktu, overloading a corrosion bucket Merlin or something, putting the drunk guy in the left seat and having a total greenhorn ride shotgun... GREAT!

Buckle up! It's heading our way! All of the sudden $150/day for riding shotgun in a KA200 sounds damn good, doesn't it? :hiya:

 

[KLB]

Well it's getting this way because people are willing to sacrifice more and get paid less to get the job. Thats why I've been debating that there is a standard that should be upheld.

 

[TangoBravo]

Well it's getting this way because people are willing to sacrifice more and get paid less to get the job. Thats why I've been debating that there is a standard that should be upheld.

Agreed! Yet, look around yourself and tell me where class, style and standards are really upheld. Desperation is taking over, and the new generation of Pilots has never seen standards, nor has pride and market awareness even remotely touched them. The industry makes it look like it is our priviledge to fly their airplanes, no longer a skilled profession that needs to be filled. You cannot seriously think that Corporate Aviation will be spared from this sellout. It's going to the lowest bidder, just like everything else in this country. Then, times will change again - maybe.

 

[guywhoflies]

I just had one of my students who overheard me talking with the gentleman about the right seat KA gig that he would do it for free just so he could get some turbo-prop time! I almost punched him in the face but I composed myself and told him that is the wrong attitude. And then I still wanted to punch him in the face!:banghead:

 

[Avalon781ML]

I just had one of my students who overheard me talking with the gentleman about the right seat KA gig that he would do it for free just so he could get some turbo-prop time! I almost punched him in the face but I composed myself and told him that is the wrong attitude. And then I still wanted to punch him in the face!:banghead:

I only have three words for you.... good for you!

Educating those who can't grasp the concept of using their commercial ticket as it was intended seems to be the only way to go these days.... and yet there is always a reason to work for free it seems.

 

[TangoBravo]

Educating those who can't grasp the concept of using their commercial ticket as it was intended seems to be the only way to go these days.....

Truer words have never been spoken. Thank You!
My signature will change again - apparently there are others who feel like this. It is a pain to watch the downfall of this profession.

 

[MFT1Air]

Some info on me: 400TT ASEL, Multi, COMM/INST with only 15 hours Multi (Yes I know, Low Total time, really low Multi time, etc, etc) but i just can't justify not taking him up on this job. I would be sent to FlightSaftey for Sim training for SIC. I would then be able to log the 135 time as SIC and the part 91 empty legs as PIC. With the stuggle to find any kind of flying job and this being as readily avialable I think this will be a really good learn expiernce and really good to build up my turbine time. Pay has not offically been talked about, but was said to be in line with other similar positions.

Here’s where it becomes subjective. Some on this thread would say he doesn’t “deserve” the position because he’s a low time TT/multi-time pilot. They’d comment about the money he would accept would lower the standards for others in similar positions. Perhaps. . .perhaps not. He did say “with the struggle” to find any kind of flying job. Some would even have to gall to tell him not to accept the position if pay isn’t “industry standards” whatever that might be. I don’t see how it degrades anyone’s commercial ticket. What’s yours is yours. . .what’s mine. . .will be mine when I get it.

Desperation is taking over, and the new generation of Pilots has never seen standards, nor has pride and market awareness even remotely touched them. The industry makes it look like it is our priviledge to fly their airplanes, no longer a skilled profession that needs to be filled. You cannot seriously think that Corporate Aviation will be spared from this sellout. It's going to the lowest bidder, just like everything else in this country. Then, times will change again - maybe.

Anyone fly or work in Nigeria, I’m unemployed and starting to get desperate. I have been contracted to fly for an oil guy there. Good $$ and paid to and from on a 2 month on 1 month off kind of deal. Anyone have any experience with this sort of thing? Thanks

Someone going to say this guy has no pride? Someone going to say this guy is lowering his standards in order to put food on the table? This post was under "Expatriate Aviation" Hmmm, could it not pilots NOT accepting lower pay but fewer jobs?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but did the events of 9/11 put us in this downward spiral? We were “fat, dumb, and happy” then. Now? Is there something called a recession going on? Has unemployment hit a 26 year high? Are gas prices causing the aviation industry to relook their bottom to ensure they do not go bankrupt? Are business taking pay cuts in order to stay alive? The aviation industry is close to bankruptcy as they try to survive, and you have their financial neophytes demanding improved pay. Please. . .Improve my benefits first. Keep my healthcare and dental premiums from skyrocketing. That'll help my pay. . .Oops, I digressed.

. . .and then I hear comments such as “toe the line!” “Maintain the industry standard. Go ahead, do that. . .all the way to the unemployment line. I’m working with five furloughed regional jet pilots now. They are not into aviation; they are using their nonaviation degrees to make a living until the “business cycle” takes an upswing. Hear me? Business cycle. The cycle will turn upwards. In the interim, it’s not comfortable to be eating spam and ramen again. Those were the college days.

Lower the bar? What the heck does that mean? It’s silly rhetoric if you ask me. Take what you believe you deserve or more. Strive for more. Consider a short term sacrifice for a long term gain. Don’t let anyone living in the past delude you from strengthening your position for the future. This is a cycle that will swing upwards. Don’t let rhetoric cloud you from putting food in you or your family’s mouths.

Lastly, the Citation Bravo post? Does anyone really think that’s a job? Sorry, it’s not, but guess what. . .somebody can benefit from it. . .there is someone in the aviation industry who presently can benefit from this position. May not be you; definitely not me. Someone can benefit from the position.

I’ll not speak negatively about them. You do what you do . . .for whatever reason to improve your standards in the industry. Teamwork matters in the cockpit and in the air. . .not necessarily on the financial negotiating table.

 

[roundout]

Incredible, simply incredible.

 

[cool92092]

I think what you don't understand is the notion to undercut people. How would this guy feel after he struggled through the hard times making just enough to put food on the table (warming a right seat) and then when the upswing comes, right about when the company is going to offer raises (promotions, etc) to its current pilots, someone else comes along and says, I'll do their job for 1/2 of what you are paying them (heck I'll even pay my way through training). It is the whole problem with outsourcing and contracting. It becomes a sliding scale of less and less and less pay until we are all flying for minimum wage. That much they can't take away.

Unions are made for exactly this reason. This is the type of undercutting that organizations fight for. I haven't joined the realm of commercial aviation but currently instruct and I bet you can guess what how I would feel if someone came around and offered to instruct at my place of work for free (just to build enough time to go to the regionals). Why can't people see that if you stick together you can make it better for everyone than selfishly trying to make it better for yourself.

 

[MFT1Air]

Incredible, simply incredible.

My 17 year old son says the same thing; when he makes that type of statement, it's apparent to me he's clueless, and at a loss to discuss anything further as he's out of rhetorical comments while never having anything of substance to validate or support his position anyway.

Me thinks there might be an analogy to be made as it relates to your comment?

 

[MFT1Air]

I think what you don't understand is the notion to undercut people. How would this guy feel after he struggled through the hard times making just enough to put food on the table (warming a right seat) and then when the upswing comes, right about when the company is going to offer raises (promotions, etc) to its current pilots, someone else comes along and says, I'll do their job for 1/2 of what you are paying them (heck I'll even pay my way through training). It is the whole problem with outsourcing and contracting. It becomes a sliding scale of less and less and less pay until we are all flying for minimum wage. That much they can't take away.

Unions are made for exactly this reason. This is the type of undercutting that organizations fight for. I haven't joined the realm of commercial aviation but currently instruct and I bet you can guess what how I would feel if someone came around and offered to instruct at my place of work for free (just to build enough time to go to the regionals). Why can't people see that if you stick together you can make it better for everyone than selfishly trying to make it better for yourself.

You make a valid point. Understand this perspective. Most people are not going to intentional lowball themselves into a job. There's not logical rationale for that kind of thought process.

Let's make a specific example here:

This guys has already stated he's a low time pilot. 400TT with 15 multi. For the sake of argument, is he more/less qualified than you to take this position if you had 600TT with 400 multi? Now, I hear comments about being paid to "industry standards" which I'm inclined to agree. Should he expect to be paid as much as you? Probably not. If the owner has both of you being considered for the job, what criteria is this guy going to use that the owner hire him over you with you having more total time and experience? Now, the significant question - is he undercutting you in order for him to be hired over you? I know the question is rhetorical but hey. . .isn't that a fact of life?

I work for NASA. People make comments to me (even on this thread) about the shuttle being built by companies who offered the lowest bid. Duh. . .sounds like excellent business practice to me.

Now, to answer your specific "what if" question, once I'm in the job for whatever reason I got the job, I'm going to grow. I'm going to gain experience. I'm going to demand raises. Somebody can come in behind me and perhaps ask for less or more. . .it depends on the market. As I progress, if I'm not happy with my financial situation, I'll go someplace else. Now, if I paid for time spent (Gulfstream for example) - fine, I paid for it. Guess what? I'm going to ask for "compensation" to recoup what I paid in order to get the employment. Short term sacrifice for long term gain.

Now, my question - are you going speak negatively about those individuals who pay for a 737 type rating in order to fly for airlines like Southwest who require a type rating before employment? Sounds like someone who is doing so is investing $7k to $10K in order to be PAID more. Is that inappropriate? Unethical? Is it undercutting someone who was trained by a another airline to fly a 737, and they wish to move over an airline with improved benefits?

Stick together. Remember PATCO? Lastly, not to make this personal, but I do think you have a job, right? I do as well. Let me be without one - my thought process wouldn't be about solidarity. . .how about self-preservation?

 

[Propilot]

This topic is similar to religion in that most people are in capable of discussing it without getting emotional and illogical.

Man do I get sick of people preaching to others. 99% of you are Hippocrates!

If you didn't get your training through the military, you participated in PFT! Why is it ok for you to pay for all your initial training but if someone takes it a step further they are evil and to blame for the woes of the industry? Oh, I forgot, you drew the line there and anyone who pays for any more training that you did (ie a type or extra time building) should be crucified for destroying the industry. Why didn't you halt your training at the beginning and hold out for an airline to sponsor you and thus raise the bar. What's that? That wouldn't have worked out for you and your situation cause the industry at the time wasn't paying for ab initio training? Bingo. The only way for you to get that first job was to anty up and pay thousands of dollars for that initial training. But if someone else feels they want to pay for something more, somehow that is not ok.

What if a pilot feels he needs to pay for a type, or time, to get that job he needs? Oh, that is soooo wrong.

Can you see the double rules here? I'm sure some of you will reply with why YOUR situation was different. Baloney! You did what you had to do, so don't condemn someone else for doing what they need to do!

Furthermore...

If you work for a regional, you participated in lowering the bar! Get off your high horse. Why was it ok for you to work for 19K per year? Oh, that's right, 19K per year is ok because that is where you drew the line, but if someone undercuts some guy by charging 100 below market rate suddenly they are the devil and are to blame for the industry woes. Why is it ok for you and not for them? Oh I forgot, all of you are GV captains making 300K per year and working 10 days a month.

I understand the sentiment of the majority on this board. No one sets out to systematically reduce the pay and quality of life that a pilot career entails. But we live in a free market society. Your unions artificially alter this. In a non union world (hell lately even in a union world) pilots have to fend for themselves a career. You do what you need to do. That is the world we live in.

My career is mine. Not yours. It would be great if everyone could band together in some communal industry push to raise the bar but by and large THAT IS NOT HOW THE WORLD WORKS. (sorry for the caps but I don't know how to italicize).

Teachers, Policeman, and Firefighters should be paid more. Sports starts a heck of a lot less. PeaceCorps volunteers should be set for life.

But pull that blank-ee off yourself. Here is a little secret for you..


You are not paid by the intrinsic value of what you do.

Here it is one more time...

You are not paid by how much you SHOULD earn. You are paid by how much the market will allow (be that a completely free market or one that is manipulated via unions).



And before someone asks, I am not a gulfstream, free right seater, nor have I paid for a type (although if I thought it made financial sense I would!)

I paid for my basic ratings with a loan, flew skydivers for 3 years, single pilot freight for a year, KA350 PIC for a year, and now do overseas contract work.

There is nothing in my past that I would need to defend to most of you, but I don't get on my high horse if someone decides what is best for his/her and their family is to buy a type, time build, or sit right seat for free in a CJ1.


Also, for the record, I am completely pro union, against PFT (even paying for our own basic ratings) and all for raising salary and qol. But I can admit that unless EVERYONE in the industry will stand behind me, sometimes you got to do what you got to do, or you wont have job/career/food/roof over your head. You can't make a stand by yourself...thus unionization. But the beginning part of your carrier is unionless...so you work with the rules the market makes.

It's just that I, unlike most, am willing to publicly admit that I'm not willing to quit this career to make a point that will not change anything unless everyone does the same. You do what you have to do (be that paying for your basic ratings, working for 25K per year, paying for a 737 type, or slinging gear for free) and if you are honest you have done and will continue to do the same.

Some of you see your salary, qol, etc as some god given right. Its called business. If you treat your career as one, you might be more successful. Of course, you already do treat yours like one. That is why you rationalized paying for your initial ratings, taking the crappy regional job, or paying some other form of dues. The real truth is that now that you are past the point that you look down on, somehow you feel empowered to lecture up and coming pilots on why their similar choices should not be made. As though they are somehow able to overpower the rules of the way the industry works.

Dont' judge others lest you be judged!

 

[MFT1Air]

:yeahthat: The defense rests. . .Concur, but then the naysayers will say you're part of the problem.

Oh well, it won't be spam/ramen tonight for dinner. I'm ordering pizza.

Dominos/Papa John's. Although it is early enough in the month to have steak!

Disregard. I still have to pay for the remaining Christmas presents.

 

[KLB]

This topic is similar to religion in that most people are in capable of discussing it without getting emotional and illogical.

Man do I get sick of people preaching to others. 99% of you are Hippocrates!

If you didn't get your training through the military, you participated in PFT! Why is it ok for you to pay for all your initial training but if someone takes it a step further they are evil and to blame for the woes of the industry? Oh, I forgot, you drew the line there and anyone who pays for any more training that you did (ie a type or extra time building) should be crucified for destroying the industry. Why didn't you halt your training at the beginning and hold out for an airline to sponsor you and thus raise the bar. What's that? That wouldn't have worked out for you and your situation cause the industry at the time wasn't paying for ab initio training? Bingo. The only way for you to get that first job was to anty up and pay thousands of dollars for that initial training. But if someone else feels they want to pay for something more, somehow that is not ok.

What if a pilot feels he needs to pay for a type, or time, to get that job he needs? Oh, that is soooo wrong.

Can you see the double rules here? I'm sure some of you will reply with why YOUR situation was different. Baloney! You did what you had to do, so don't condemn someone else for doing what they need to do!

Furthermore...

If you work for a regional, you participated in lowering the bar! Get off your high horse. Why was it ok for you to work for 19K per year? Oh, that's right, 19K per year is ok because that is where you drew the line, but if someone undercuts some guy by charging 100 below market rate suddenly they are the devil and are to blame for the industry woes. Why is it ok for you and not for them? Oh I forgot, all of you are GV captains making 300K per year and working 10 days a month.

I understand the sentiment of the majority on this board. No one sets out to systematically reduce the pay and quality of life that a pilot career entails. But we live in a free market society. Your unions artificially alter this. In a non union world (hell lately even in a union world) pilots have to fend for themselves a career. You do what you need to do. That is the world we live in.

My career is mine. Not yours. It would be great if everyone could band together in some communal industry push to raise the bar but by and large THAT IS NOT HOW THE WORLD WORKS. (sorry for the caps but I don't know how to italicize).

Teachers, Policeman, and Firefighters should be paid more. Sports starts a heck of a lot less. PeaceCorps volunteers should be set for life.

But pull that blank-ee off yourself. Here is a little secret for you..


You are not paid by the intrinsic value of what you do.

Here it is one more time...

You are not paid by how much you SHOULD earn. You are paid by how much the market will allow (be that a completely free market or one that is manipulated via unions).



And before someone asks, I am not a gulfstream, free right seater, nor have I paid for a type (although if I thought it made financial sense I would!)

I paid for my basic ratings with a loan, flew skydivers for 3 years, single pilot freight for a year, KA350 PIC for a year, and now do overseas contract work.

There is nothing in my past that I would need to defend to most of you, but I don't get on my high horse if someone decides what is best for his/her and their family is to buy a type, time build, or sit right seat for free in a CJ1.


Also, for the record, I am completely pro union, against PFT (even paying for our own basic ratings) and all for raising salary and qol. But I can admit that unless EVERYONE in the industry will stand behind me, sometimes you got to do what you got to do, or you wont have job/career/food/roof over your head. You can't make a stand by yourself...thus unionization. But the beginning part of your carrier is unionless...so you work with the rules the market makes.

It's just that I, unlike most, am willing to publicly admit that I'm not willing to quit this career to make a point that will not change anything unless everyone does the same. You do what you have to do (be that paying for your basic ratings, working for 25K per year, paying for a 737 type, or slinging gear for free) and if you are honest you have done and will continue to do the same.

Some of you see your salary, qol, etc as some god given right. Its called business. If you treat your career as one, you might be more successful. Of course, you already do treat yours like one. That is why you rationalized paying for your initial ratings, taking the crappy regional job, or paying some other form of dues. The real truth is that now that you are past the point that you look down on, somehow you feel empowered to lecture up and coming pilots on why their similar choices should not be made. As though they are somehow able to overpower the rules of the way the industry works.

Dont' judge others lest you be judged!

Says the guy who's has gotten paid way above the "standard pay" in his last TWO jobs. I'm going to call your boss and steal your job by offering to do it for half of what he pays you. I know I'd be able to survive off of it.

 

[SteveC]

This topic is similar to religion in that most people are in capable of discussing it without getting emotional and illogical.

...

Dont' judge others lest you be judged!

:yeahthat:

Rather insightful post actually.

 

[MFT1Air]

Says the guy who's has gotten paid way above the "standard pay" in his last TWO jobs. I'm going to call your boss and steal your job by offering to do it for half of what he pays you. I know I'd be able to survive off of it.

Never happen! Now?. . .it's not about industry standards. Like I said previously, once my foot is in the door, my experience and professionalism will prove to him that, regardless of what they are paying me, high ball/low ball or where ever, my performance will have them believe THEY got me at a bargain rate. (Because whatever job I'm in, I excel. Sorry, I'm just that good.) :nana2:

Call all you want; after me, they can do no better. See? It's not about the money; it's performance. If they're paying me ABOVE the standard and I ask for a raise. . .they'll give it to me; if I low balled to get in, if I ask for a raise, they'll give it to me.

No more spam and ramen!

 

[Propilot]

Says the guy who's has gotten paid way above the "standard pay" in his last TWO jobs. I'm going to call your boss and steal your job by offering to do it for half of what he pays you. I know I'd be able to survive off of it.

I admit I have been very very lucky with my last two jobs. But before you think I am overpaid, consider that even with how much we are paid over here, the average new hire lasts 4-6 weeks, if they show at all. ;]

...of course that was before the downturn, but I digress.


But anyway, if you did that, you would just be proving my point.

Also, even though I wouldn't like it and would be mad, I wouldn't judge you. I would congratulate you on doing whats best for you and yours. I can look at the industry from a withdrawn prospective and see that you are just doing what is right for you...like we all do...whether we admit it or not.

I would like to think if that were to happen (you undercut me and take my job) that even though I would be mad, I would realize it isn't your fault that I lost my job, that you are just working it the best you can for your career, and I would be happy to have a dinner with you before I left on my last day of work, and the first day of your new job.



...and then I would move back to SLC and be a skibum/mountain guide for the rest of my life! ;]

 

[KLB]

I admit I have been very very lucky with my last two jobs. But before you think I am overpaid, consider that even with how much we are paid over here, the average new hire lasts 4-6 weeks, if they show at all. ;]

...of course that was before the downturn, but I digress.


But anyway, if you did that, you would just be proving my point.

Also, even though I wouldn't like it and would be mad, I wouldn't judge you. I would congratulate you on doing whats best for you and yours. I can look at the industry from a withdrawn prospective and see that you are just doing what is right for you...like we all do...whether we admit it or not.

I would like to think if that were to happen (you undercut me and take my job) that even though I would be mad, I would realize it isn't your fault that I lost my job, that you are just working it the best you can for your career, and I would be happy to have a dinner with you before I left on my last day of work, and the first day of your new job.



...and then I would move back to SLC and be a skibum/mountain guide for the rest of my life! ;]

Thats where we differ! I wouldn't go after your job and cut your legs from under you. If I was flight instructing, I would continue doing that until I found I had the experience to get something better. Of course as you know, I'm now flying old freight planes. I'd love to get out of this type of flying and get into the corporate side/something different.. But I know you and how hard you've worked to get the jobs that you have. I wouldn't go calling your boss requesting to do your job at a lower price than you just to get ahead. Eventually I'll find someone to hire me because they think that my experience is valuable and that I'm the right person for the job because of it. Not because I'm the cheapest labor they could find. Thats why you've gotten those to great gigs right?