KA200 Job Offer

[KLB]

Same as with the King air gig. They want someone sitting in the right seat because the customer feels more comfortable that way. If the customer wants a second crewmember (the customer considers you a competent crewmember) you should be properly compensated for it.

If people continue to be willing to these jobs for lower and lower, the end result will be doing it for free eventually. Thats why we shouldn't be lowballing each other for this type of work.

But the economy's bad and we have to do what we have to do to survive right?

 

[BillErvin]

So who is going to take this "job," which popped up today? By some the rationale of some posters in this thread, it would be quite the "opportunity."

Not me! I don't live in AZ and don't want too.

 

[Avalon781ML]

Same as with the King air gig. They want someone sitting in the right seat because the customer feels more comfortable that way. If the customer wants a second crewmember (the customer considers you a competent crewmember) you should be properly compensated for it.

If people continue to be willing to these jobs for lower and lower, the end result will be doing it for free eventually. Thats why we shouldn't be lowballing each other for this type of work.

But the economy's bad and we have to do what we have to do to survive right?

These folks will burn through $300 in operating costs in what half an hour... this is nuts.... non-paid position. I want to vomit after reading the ad. This is what the industry has come to and all of us will be paying the price.

 

[roundout]

It's rather confusing to me to be perfectly honest.

. . .indicates no requirement for a SIC particularly if it's Part 91. Instead of part-time, I'm thinking more in lines of "on call." I guess the question asked is "why pay someone when you don't "need" someone.

Given that scenario, it's simply a glorified "jump seat" with fringe benefits of expenses and PIC time when the "bosses" aren't aboard. . .or can you do PIC time if you're typed if prior coordination is made about who is PIC?

Interesting. . .

It doesn't say you have to be typed. It says they provide training. Again, I don't know what that means.

Help me here. . .how do you get SIC time with a Part 91 single pilot aircraft? I'm under the impression you can't. I'm sure someone can substantiate with facts.

Again, it looks like a glorified "jump" seat. You're right. It's not classified as a job at least from my viewpoint. Hence, no need to pay anyone.

Now, that makes sense.

YGTBSM

 

[docflyer]

So who is going to take this "job," which popped up today? By some the rationale of some posters in this thread, it would be quite the "opportunity."

Company:Confidential Position:Citation Bravo "SIC" Non-Paid Position Type:Flight Crew Location:Scottsdale AZ Salary:Expenses Only
Description:We are currently seeking a part –time, on demand SIC for our Citation Bravo part 91 operation. Captain is single pilot qualified but we occasionally have trips that our bosses prefer to have two pilots aboard. This is time-building / learning / traveling opportunity and is NOT PAID. ALL expenses are covered including 4 star hotels, meals, rental cars, and other fun opportunities! We usually fly one leg / day and the flights are for the most part short and easy and fun. This is an awesome opportunity for CFI’s who are looking to get into Jets or for someone looking to stay current until they find their next job. No jet experience required. Could turn into a full time position in a larger aircraft if this economy comes around! We provide in-house training. Our primary destinations include: SoCal, LAS, SLC, AUS, TEB DO NOT APPLY IF YOU DO NOT LIVE IN ARIZONA! Please send a current pilot resume to PHXCE550@yahoo.com
Contact Information
Contact Name:N/A Phone:N/A Fax:N/A EmailhxCE550@yahoo.com
Websitelease Email

Wow, that's a shame.

 

[granlistillo]

ok,
all you guys that want to puke about this nonpaid position...
My "official" position is that if you accept a PAID job, you should negotiate whatever pay you can accept for your experience level.

As far as non paid position go, FEDERAL law applies. As I understand it, and as a bidness man, NO bidness may allow a person to work for free, what it may otherwise have to pay an employee UNLESS it is a non-profit organization. Or in other words "volunteer" work is strictly verboten if you aint a NGO. Don't take my word for it, talk to the US deparment of labor.

If a airplane is certified as two pilot, a SIC is required and unless this is a physicians without borders, or a missionary type organization they must pay at least minimum wage.

This law is abused alot, and only happens cause people dont complain. The dept of labor wont go searching job boards for offenders. So all you pukers, quit your beeaachin' and drop a dime on them. Also, all these so called contract labor employers are just ripe for the IRS to drop the boom on them. know the law and act.

 

[granlistillo]

ok I read it a little better now. It is a single pilot gig. Doesnt matter, cause the boss wants or prefers 2 pilots. Illegal! doesnt matter if the sic is acting as an "air hostess" or flying every leg.

Now in my bidness, if I had someone that said to me... Bear I would love to learn the in and outs of import-export bidness and I would kill myself and volunteer to work for you for free to do so. Wrong answer and thanks for playing. Against the friggin law. Now if I arranged the deal where you had to pay me for "training" it is no longer a "volunteer" gig and legal.

Evil wheels now turning in my mind-just kidding!!!

BTW, this is why Gulfstream "scheme" is legal in every aspect. you pay for the "training" but the "job" is paid (at least min wage.) Drop a dime on 'em.

 

[JDE]

ok,
all you guys that want to puke about this nonpaid position...
My "official" position is that if you accept a PAID job, you should negotiate whatever pay you can accept for your experience level.

As far as non paid position go, FEDERAL law applies. As I understand it, and as a bidness man, NO bidness may allow a person to work for free, what it may otherwise have to pay an employee UNLESS it is a non-profit organization. Or in other words "volunteer" work is strictly verboten if you aint a NGO. Don't take my word for it, talk to the US deparment of labor.

If a airplane is certified as two pilot, a SIC is required and unless this is a physicians without borders, or a missionary type organization they must pay at least minimum wage.

This law is abused alot, and only happens cause people dont complain. The dept of labor wont go searching job boards for offenders. So all you pukers, quit your beeaachin' and drop a dime on them. Also, all these so called contract labor employers are just ripe for the IRS to drop the boom on them. know the law and act.

The airplane in question is a single pilot airplane with a PIC who is authorized to fly single pilot - so yeah, I don't think the Department of Labor really cares if the guy warming the right seat is paid or not since he is in no way required to be there by company or FAA rules. Of course I had a hard time trying to understand what you wrote, so maybe I'm missing something.

 

[granlistillo]

The airplane in question is a single pilot airplane with a PIC who is authorized to fly single pilot - so yeah, I don't think the Department of Labor really cares if the guy warming the right seat is paid or not since he is in no way required to be there by company or FAA rules. Of course I had a hard time trying to understand what you wrote, so maybe I'm missing something.

Yeah I misread it. Read my second post.

But to make it simple for you since you don't seem to understand, no "employer" can allow a person to work for free and not trangress labor law.

A lot of "unpaid internships" will not pass legal scrutiny. For what it is worth (based on personal observation), the Department of labor is overtasked and under funded, so unless they have to act, your assessment is correct.

 

[wrxpilot]

It doesn't say you have to be typed. It says they provide training. Again, I don't know what that means.

Help me here. . .how do you get SIC time with a Part 91 single pilot aircraft? I'm under the impression you can't. I'm sure someone can substantiate with facts.

Again, it looks like a glorified "jump" seat. You're right. It's not classified as a job at least from my viewpoint. Hence, no need to pay anyone.

Now, that makes sense.

Did you happen to read the quoted text in my reply? It was from you, talking about a PIC type. I responded to that.

Now you're talking about something totally different, logging SIC time. The Bravo requires an FAA exemption to fly single pilot. This exemption does NOT require the PIC to fly without a SIC, as it is an exemption only.

The SIC can log SIC time if they meet the qualifications and have undergone the training outlined in FAR 61.55. An SIC type is not required unless they are performing international operations.

 

[JDE]

Yeah I misread it. Read my second post.

But to make it simple for you since you don't seem to understand, no "employer" can allow a person to work for free and not trangress labor law.

A lot of "unpaid internships" will not pass legal scrutiny. For what it is worth (based on personal observation), the Department of labor is overtasked and under funded, so unless they have to act, your assessment is correct.

I was still composing my post when you posted the second, so I missed it. As far as not understanding - that was mostly referring to the use of terms such as "bidness". I didn't realize that was a word in the English language.

 

[granlistillo]

Roger that amigo, please feel free to revoke my MA. "Bidness" is a little tongue in cheek, so to speak. Every time I run across the guys who seemed to escaped the used car lot, complete with checkered sports coat, in the "bidness" world I tend to think "bidness". Anybody that engages in labor practices that uses "unpaid volunteer" or "contract labor" tend to be somewhat legally dubious and evoke this type of terminology. I am sure my Cambridge educated wife would be equally offended by my idiomatic verbiage. Glad you are holding the line on the English language.

Hey, maybe when I am completely filthy rich I can buy a 787 and have two private pilots with type ratings crew it without pay. I can make my legal defense before the DOL based upon the fact that the pilots are not entitled to have any sort of remuneration as pilots based on the PPL.

Considered myself done talking with you.

 

[jtrain609]

Roger that amigo, please feel free to revoke my MA. "Bidness" is a little tongue in cheek, so to speak. Every time I run across the guys who seemed to escaped the used car lot, complete with checkered sports coat, in the "bidness" world I tend to think "bidness". Anybody that engages in labor practices that uses "unpaid volunteer" or "contract labor" tend to be somewhat legally dubious and evoke this type of terminology. I am sure my Cambridge educated wife would be equally offended by my idiomatic verbiage. Glad you are holding the line on the English language.

Hey, maybe when I am completely filthy rich I can buy a 787 and have two private pilots with type ratings crew it without pay. I can make my legal defense before the DOL based upon the fact that the pilots are not entitled to have any sort of remuneration as pilots based on the PPL.

Considered myself done talking with you.

And the FAA would come after you because you've got private pilots that are exercising the rights of commercial pilots by operating a part 91 corporate aircraft "for hire." While they're not being paid, the FAA considers flight time accrued as compensation enough.

Pilots eat their young, and this thread is proof.

 

[Keebler]

Please don't take this job!

 

[granlistillo]

And the FAA would come after you because you've got private pilots that are exercising the rights of commercial pilots by operating a part 91 corporate aircraft "for hire." While they're not being paid, the FAA considers flight time accrued as compensation enough.

Pilots eat their young, and this thread is proof.

Interesting, i guess I would have to register the 787 with a manx registration and have their tickets validated with a isle of mann authorities to avoid the consequences of my evil scheme.

BTW,I forgot this ...

If you are against "working for free " as a commercial pilot, then you are preaching to the choir.

 

[JDE]

Considered myself done talking with you.

Good.

 

[MFT1Air]

YGTBSM

Quote from Jack Nicholson in The Last Detail

No man, I wouldn't do that; you're my biggest turd!

Now, if I missed something, help to understand please. If I read this posting correctly, it's not a job. How can there be SIC consideration if the aircraft can be flown legally single pilot? I'm missing something here?

They are going to train someone to be typed in the airplane. They want you to fly with the other pilot simply to elevate their comfort level. You're not needed in the airplane. If that's the case, why pay someone? Is there something I'm missing here?

 

[MFT1Air]

Did you happen to read the quoted text in my reply? It was from you, talking about a PIC type. I responded to that.

Now you're talking about something totally different, logging SIC time. The Bravo requires an FAA exemption to fly single pilot. This exemption does NOT require the PIC to fly without a SIC, as it is an exemption only.

The SIC can log SIC time if they meet the qualifications and have undergone the training outlined in FAR 61.55. An SIC type is not required unless they are performing international operations.

Yep, I think I got it now, thanks. I think the original post is a crock that requires clarification. Again, I don't believe it's really SIC at all. It's just sit there going along for the ride. . .and we'll house you where we travel. Are you flying? I don't know. Are you able to log PIC time? I don't know. Are you going to provide me training to be typed in the aircraft? Yes. Can I quit after training? Yep. . .That sounds good to me. . .

 

[JDE]

Yep, I think I got it now, thanks. I think the original post is a crock that requires clarification. Again, I don't believe it's really SIC at all. It's just sit there going along for the ride. . .and we'll house you where we travel.

Yes.

Are you flying? I don't know. Are you able to log PIC time? I don't know. Are you going to provide me training to be typed in the aircraft? Yes. Can I quit after training? Yep. . .That sounds good to me. . .

They won't type you in the airplane, they will only provide the necessary training to 'act' as SIC - ie - 3 takeoffs and landings and "systems knowledge". No one who is already typed would ever remotely consider a position like this, therefore NO PIC time. I would doubt that you as an SIC would even get any stick time - other than the 3 takeoffs and landings. Training costs are virtually non-existent due to the lack of training. It won't cost too much to take a Bravo around the patch 3 times.

You may have forgot the sarcasm tag at the end, I'm not sure, because apparently I'm reading things out of context lately, but this does not sound good.

 

[MFT1Air]

Yes.



They won't type you in the airplane, they will only provide the necessary training to 'act' as SIC - ie - 3 takeoffs and landings and "systems knowledge". No one who is already typed would ever remotely consider a position like this, therefore NO PIC time. I would doubt that you as an SIC would even get any stick time - other than the 3 takeoffs and landings. Training costs are virtually non-existent due to the lack of training. It won't cost too much to take a Bravo around the patch 3 times.

You may have forgot the sarcasm tag at the end, I'm not sure, because apparently I'm reading things out of context lately, but this does not sound good.

OK, I'm not familiar with the training dollars for a Citation, so thanks. . .that's good information for me. It makes sense. I can understand the uproar over a nonpaid position.