KA200 Job Offer

[KLB]

What, from your perspective, is "the standard?" You based this "standard upon what?

Well you can start by finding out what your fellow qualified contract pilots are making. I struck a side gig that may have me flying a corporate metro left seat for 500 bucks a day. Since they aren't very many corporate metros flying around and it's comparable to the king air series, I asked my contract buddies who fly king airs how much there captains are getting paid. It came out to about 400 to 600 bucks a day. I'm qualified and within the standard. I don't need to charge less to get job.

OK, so what is "minimum wage" for a right seater? What do you compare those wages? I'm curious? This is a King Air 200. How different is this aircraft from . . .say a regional jet where those guys make what. . .19K? Help me to better understand

Well how much do you think you will be flying that aircraft. You don't know. It's contract work. You may fly it 15 times one month and only once another. Thats the big difference between a regional airline and this. It's an opportunity cost. You can have the stability (and I use that term loosely) and steady income of the regional airlines or you can have the opportunity to get paid significantly more as a contract pilot which the chance that you may fly very little some times.

What do you do for a living? What if someone went to the higher ups and said that they'd do your job for half of what they pay you? They'd even put in overtime for free. Managements decides to give them your job.

Do you believe that theres a point where the people in your field and you should not drop below to uphold your profession and your livelihood?

Oh? And again, exactly how much "experience" do you believe is appropriate?

Enough experience where you wouldn't have to lowball you fellow qualified contract pilots to get the gig. The fellow contract pilots are the ones that help you get the good gigs in most cases that I've observed.

 

[BillErvin]

Enough experience where you wouldn't have to lowball you fellow qualified contract pilots to get the gig. The fellow contract pilots are the ones that help you get the good gigs in most cases that I've observed.

How exactly, does one get that experience, without "lowballing" your fellow qualified brother/sister pilots??:banghead:

Even more importantly, all else being equal, why would an owner/operator hire someone with no experience for the same rate of someone with experience

How did you get your experience

 

[KLB]

How exactly, does one get that experience, without "lowballing" your fellow qualified brother/sister pilots??:banghead:

Even more importantly, all else being equal, why would an owner/operator hire someone with no experience for the same rate of someone with experience

How did you get your experience

With only about 400hrs hours turbine PIC (only about 125hrs are in the metro), I was offered 500 bucks a day plus expenses to fly left seat in someones corporate metro. I wouldn't do it for any less than that. I'm far less experienced than many people with metro a type. Heck, there are people at my company with 1000's of hours of metro time that he could have called. I was offered the part time gig because I knew a guy who knew a guy. It's called networking. Now I may only be called to fly the plane once every blue moon, but who knows who this guys knows or the leads on future gigs he may have. I'm learning that this is how it works.

 

[PaulRix]

First of all if you are in the right seat you are not there to LEARN.... .

That is an unbelievably naive statement Belliot. I don't care how much flight instructor time a person may have logged, or Piston Twin time etc etc. When you step up in equipment you are back in learning mode for a while. The only way to get up to speed on a new type is to get experience in the cockpit.

I also think it is naive to expect someone to walk away from a career advancing opportunity because the (initial) pay offered doesn't meet the approval of the more experienced guys, or that there are more experienced guys out there who probably deserve the position more. Lets face it, Networking isn't about taking a number and standing in line, it is about making contacts who can help you advance.

Obviously those on each side of this debate will not see eye to eye on this. I just get really irritated by the 'Holier than thou' attitude displayed by some here. There is absolutely no need for it.

I am going to bail out of this discussion before it gets out of hand. Happy New Year.

 

[KLB]

I don't have a lot of experience in the aircraft that you fly, but I really want to get into your sector of the industry. I think I'm going to call the owner of the aircraft that you fly and ask for your job. But since I'm not as experienced, I'm willing to do it for half of what you're getting paid.

I would never do that. I'm just trying to get my point across.

Happy New Years!

 

[BillErvin]

With only about 400hrs hours turbine PIC (only about 125hrs are in the metro), I was offered 500 bucks a day plus expenses to fly left seat in someones corporate metro. I wouldn't do it for any less than that. I'm far less experienced than many people with metro a type. Heck, there are people at my company with 1000's of hours of metro time that he could have called. I was offered the part time gig because I knew a guy who knew a guy. It's called networking. Now I may only be called to fly the plane once every blue moon, but who knows who this guys knows or the leads on future gigs he may have. I'm learning that this is how it works.

I'm all about networking, thats the best way to get most any job.

I'll try that question again, since you missed it. How exactly, does one get that experience, without "lowballing" your fellow qualified brother/sister pilots??

If someone has no Turbine PIC, no type, and between 200 to 400 hours piston twin time and they are offered a part time right seat in a KA should they demand $400 or $500 per day plus expenses. Networking only goes so far! If I was the owner, and was just trying to give a kid a break, I'm afraid I'd have to decline and look somewhere else.

 

[KLB]

I'm all about networking, thats the best way to get most any job.

I'll try that question again, since you missed it. How exactly, does one get that experience, without "lowballing" your fellow qualified brother/sister pilots??

If someone has no Turbine PIC, no type, and between 200 to 400 hours piston twin time and they are offered a part time right seat in a KA should they demand $400 or $500 per day plus expenses. Networking only goes so far! If I was the owner, and was just trying to give a kid a break, I'm afraid I'd have to decline and look somewhere else.

I've had quite a few friends that have had only 200-400 hrs twin time and 0 turbine time get that kind of money flying right seat in a king air. One of my buddies (RyanMcG can vouch for me here) went from flying right seat in a king air contract, to flying right seat in a westwind contract, to flying right seat in an Astra and a Citation full time working 5 days a month for a company that offers benefits and a 401K. He started out when he was 1700hr flight instructor and a former flight instructor from our flight school got him into the right seat of a king air. He was paid 300 bucks from day one in the king air.

Now I'm trying to get him to get me hired where he's working.

 

[TangoBravo]

That is an unbelievably naive statement Belliot. I don't care how much flight instructor time a person may have logged, or Piston Twin time etc etc. When you step up in equipment you are back in learning mode for a while. The only way to get up to speed on a new type is to get experience in the cockpit.

I also think it is naive to expect someone to walk away from a career advancing opportunity because the (initial) pay offered doesn't meet the approval of the more experienced guys, or that there are more experienced guys out there who probably deserve the position more. Lets face it, Networking isn't about taking a number and standing in line, it is about making contacts who can help you advance.

Obviously those on each side of this debate will not see eye to eye on this. I just get really irritated by the 'Holier than thou' attitude displayed by some here. There is absolutely no need for it.

I am going to bail out of this discussion before it gets out of hand. Happy New Year.

Paul, at some point those people are going to get the fact that the throatcutter business did not evolve overnight, it was introduced by the pilots who accepted minimum wage jobs, years ago. It has become a standard. There are some who would love to uphold imaginary standards - but they will be dissapointed by their fellow pilot colleaques.

I don't have a lot of experience in the aircraft that you fly, but I really want to get into your sector of the industry. I think I'm going to call the owner of the aircraft that you fly and ask for your job. But since I'm not as experienced, I'm willing to do it for half of what you're getting paid.

I would never do that. I'm just trying to get my point across.

I guarantee this has happened, they don't bring points across, they just run around and steal jobs. Jobs that used to be occupied by professionals, not desperados.

I'll say it again, trying to convince OP not to accept this job is tasteless, all it does is cost him an opportunity someone else will get for way less.

 

[MFT1Air]

I've had quite a few friends that have had only 200-400 hrs twin time and 0 turbine time get that kind of money flying right seat in a king air. One of my buddies (RyanMcG can vouch for me here) went from flying right seat in a king air contract, to flying right seat in a westwind contract, to flying right seat in an Astra and a Citation full time working 5 days a month for a company that offers benefits and a 401K. He started out when he was 1700hr flight instructor and a former flight instructor from our flight school got him into the right seat of a king air. He was paid 300 bucks from day one in the king air.

Now I'm trying to get him to get me hired where he's working.

I'll agree with many/most of your points you addressed previously. I'll not argue nothing contrary to what you pointed out in your previous post. (it was too long to quote)

Those other instrinic intangibles not mentioned, i.e. - networking, present financial situation, etc. will unfortunately skew your median for pay based upon "experience." I hear this on the board all the time. Same hours flown, but variances in turbine time, turboprop time, or jet time all play into who is more or less "experienced" to fly whatever aviation position one is applying. There is a "range" where one should not accept a position. . .all things being equal. Guess what? All things aren't. Fact of life. I'll not disrespect anyone by saying he or she discredits themselves by working for peanuts. I'd educate them . . .just as you did . . .but providing the appropriate research and analysis to have an employer conclude on their own a potential aviator should be paid what the potential aviator believes they deserve. If not, it's always the aviators decision to say no and move on. . .if that option is financially viable to that person.

As for me, I can't utilize your example to justify my present or past occupation. My past employment was military. . .25 years worth. That is what it is. Period.

My present employment is one involving the training of astronauts in the space program. From a human resource perspective (the dollars) I'm not qualified, as you must be an ABET degreed individual to apply for the job. I required and received a waiver, as my first three years of college was EE before I changed majors, but most importantly, I did essentially the same job in the military that I transitioned into once I left the military. Having said that, if you compare pay scales, I'm probably STILL being paid significantly less than my peers to do the same job, but realistically, I have more experience than they do having done the job in the military. Do I ask for more money? Everytime an evaluation is done. Do I go someplace else? Well, there's a point where money really doesn't matter when you thoroughly enjoy the job/experiences you are presently involved. I train astronauts. I can go someplace and make more money. . .but the thrill of the job someplace else will never compare to what I'm doing now.

. . .hence, those intrinsic values.

PS - Bill, ask Paul.

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

I'm all about networking, thats the best way to get most any job.

I'll try that question again, since you missed it. How exactly, does one get that experience, without "lowballing" your fellow qualified brother/sister pilots??

If someone has no Turbine PIC, no type, and between 200 to 400 hours piston twin time and they are offered a part time right seat in a KA should they demand $400 or $500 per day plus expenses. Networking only goes so far! If I was the owner, and was just trying to give a kid a break, I'm afraid I'd have to decline and look somewhere else.

Look somewhere else for what, someone willing to work for below standard wages? Why wouldn't you hire this low time kid and pay him a decent wage? Just cause they are low time, you should be allowed to pay him/her below standard wages? That's BS.

 

[BillErvin]

But Paul loves what he does and he get a healthy check. I've Got to agree, Loving what you do, makes up for the pay almost every time

Take retirement for an example... I get paid less now than when I was working, but this is a lot more fun:bandit:

 

[BillErvin]

Look somewhere else for what, someone willing to work for below standard wages? Why wouldn't you hire this low time kid and pay him a decent wage? Just cause they are low time, you should be allowed to pay him/her below standard wages? That's BS.

For that kind of money (standard rate) I'd look for someone with time in type, maybe SIC type at least.

BS... Can't disagree, but it is reality. Outside of a union shop, standard wage is what an employer and employee agree it is. Should the OP turn down a job sitting right seat and flying 61 in a KA part time out of Moses Lake because the rate is to low. I've lived up there and I would have thought it was a pretty good offer for someone with no time. If he didn't take it, he's still sitting in Moses Lake with zero KA time and zero chance at getting any.

 

[granlistillo]

Something to consider gents. Local markets have different market conditions. Lot of jobs, few qualified pilots = better pay. So it may be a little "relative".

 

[Avalon781ML]

That is an unbelievably naive statement Belliot. I don't care how much flight instructor time a person may have logged, or Piston Twin time etc etc. When you step up in equipment you are back in learning mode for a while. The only way to get up to speed on a new type is to get experience in the cockpit.

I also think it is naive to expect someone to walk away from a career advancing opportunity because the (initial) pay offered doesn't meet the approval of the more experienced guys, or that there are more experienced guys out there who probably deserve the position more. Lets face it, Networking isn't about taking a number and standing in line, it is about making contacts who can help you advance.

Obviously those on each side of this debate will not see eye to eye on this. I just get really irritated by the 'Holier than thou' attitude displayed by some here. There is absolutely no need for it.

I am going to bail out of this discussion before it gets out of hand. Happy New Year.

I think we have a little bit of a misunderstanding.... of course there is going to be a learning curve when one steps into new equipment... it is inevitable. My statement was directed towards those people who step into the aircraft and have not had the time to polish their general flying skills. A big concern in the 121 industry, at least for a while, was that low time FO's could fly a perfect ILS but couldn't shoot a visual to save their life. Basic airmanship and experience is/was the problem. My statement that you think is "naive" simply states that a person who hasn't any experience shouldn't be in the right seat and thus shouldn't use the experience card when discussing pay. If one is a professional they should always play the part and be compensated for that. Happy New Years.

 

[MFT1Air]

Why wouldn't you hire this low time kid and pay him a decent wage?

Finance/accounting/economics 101 - supply and demand. If the supply (jobs) are small and the demands (pilots) are great, I (employer) give them what I want and they'll take it. . .period. If they tell me no, not a problem. . .I'll go elsewhere.

Those who told me no can go find employment someplace at a salary they can appreciate. . .or they eat spam and ramen and bunk three to a room until they find what they want.

Unemployment rates are rising, right? Pilots are being furloughed, right. . .or have I missed something. CFIs are going abroad to find a JOB!

Guess what? The "standards" in pay are coming down. Deal with it. It might be a cycle; it might be a phase. It is reality.

By no means I am saying to demand a higher salary, but don't kid yourself or anybody else please. Unemployment only goes so far when you're two or three months behind in mortgage/rent/ car notes. . .or that last steak dinner.

Take that interim "fix" until something better comes along, then bail. . .the employer will know why. . .and they'd better understand it as well. Too many attritions is a good indicator of something negative going on within an organization. Environment, working conditions. . . PAY perhaps?

Even Ray Charles can see the obvious

 

[roundout]

So who is going to take this "job," which popped up today? By some the rationale of some posters in this thread, it would be quite the "opportunity."

Company:Confidential Position:Citation Bravo "SIC" Non-Paid Position Type:Flight Crew Location:Scottsdale AZ Salary:Expenses Only
Description:We are currently seeking a part –time, on demand SIC for our Citation Bravo part 91 operation. Captain is single pilot qualified but we occasionally have trips that our bosses prefer to have two pilots aboard. This is time-building / learning / traveling opportunity and is NOT PAID. ALL expenses are covered including 4 star hotels, meals, rental cars, and other fun opportunities! We usually fly one leg / day and the flights are for the most part short and easy and fun. This is an awesome opportunity for CFI’s who are looking to get into Jets or for someone looking to stay current until they find their next job. No jet experience required. Could turn into a full time position in a larger aircraft if this economy comes around! We provide in-house training. Our primary destinations include: SoCal, LAS, SLC, AUS, TEB DO NOT APPLY IF YOU DO NOT LIVE IN ARIZONA! Please send a current pilot resume to PHXCE550@yahoo.com
Contact Information
Contact Name:N/A Phone:N/A Fax:N/A EmailhxCE550@yahoo.com
Websitelease Email

 

[MFT1Air]

So who is going to take this "job," which popped up today? By some the rationale of some posters in this thread, it would be quite the "opportunity."

Company:Confidential Position:Citation Bravo "SIC" Non-Paid Position Type:Flight Crew Location:Scottsdale AZ Salary:Expenses Only
Description:We are currently seeking a part –time, on demand SIC for our Citation Bravo part 91 operation. Captain is single pilot qualified but we occasionally have trips that our bosses prefer to have two pilots aboard. This is time-building / learning / traveling opportunity and is NOT PAID. ALL expenses are covered including 4 star hotels, meals, rental cars, and other fun opportunities! We usually fly one leg / day and the flights are for the most part short and easy and fun. This is an awesome opportunity for CFI’s who are looking to get into Jets or for someone looking to stay current until they find their next job. No jet experience required. Could turn into a full time position in a larger aircraft if this economy comes around! We provide in-house training. Our primary destinations include: SoCal, LAS, SLC, AUS, TEB DO NOT APPLY IF YOU DO NOT LIVE IN ARIZONA! Please send a current pilot resume to PHXCE550@yahoo.com
Contact Information
Contact Name:N/A Phone:N/A Fax:N/A EmailhxCE550@yahoo.com
Websitelease Email

It's rather confusing to me to be perfectly honest.

Captain is single pilot qualified but we occasionally have trips that our bosses prefer to have two pilots aboard.

. . .indicates no requirement for a SIC particularly if it's Part 91. Instead of part-time, I'm thinking more in lines of "on call." I guess the question asked is "why pay someone when you don't "need" someone.

Given that scenario, it's simply a glorified "jump seat" with fringe benefits of expenses and PIC time when the "bosses" aren't aboard. . .or can you do PIC time if you're typed if prior coordination is made about who is PIC?

Interesting. . .

 

[JDE]

So who is going to take this "job," which popped up today? By some the rationale of some posters in this thread, it would be quite the "opportunity."

Company:Confidential Position:Citation Bravo "SIC" Non-Paid Position Type:Flight Crew Location:Scottsdale AZ Salary:Expenses Only
Description:We are currently seeking a part –time, on demand SIC for our Citation Bravo part 91 operation. Captain is single pilot qualified but we occasionally have trips that our bosses prefer to have two pilots aboard. This is time-building / learning / traveling opportunity and is NOT PAID. ALL expenses are covered including 4 star hotels, meals, rental cars, and other fun opportunities! We usually fly one leg / day and the flights are for the most part short and easy and fun. This is an awesome opportunity for CFI’s who are looking to get into Jets or for someone looking to stay current until they find their next job. No jet experience required. Could turn into a full time position in a larger aircraft if this economy comes around! We provide in-house training. Our primary destinations include: SoCal, LAS, SLC, AUS, TEB DO NOT APPLY IF YOU DO NOT LIVE IN ARIZONA! Please send a current pilot resume to PHXCE550@yahoo.com
Contact Information
Contact Name:N/A Phone:N/A Fax:N/A EmailhxCE550@yahoo.com
Websitelease Email

What a joke. I don't have time to respond with how I really feel about operators like this, but what a crock of ####. If you operate a multi-million dollar jet, you can sure as hell afford to pay $300/day for a guy/gal to sit in the right seat on the legs you want them on. I'd like to kick a few people in the balls on this one - the operator and the idiot who takes them up on their offer.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[wrxpilot]

Given that scenario, it's simply a glorified "jump seat" with fringe benefits of expenses and PIC time when the "bosses" aren't aboard. . .or can you do PIC time if you're typed if prior coordination is made about who is PIC?

Interesting. . .

You think somebody that's typed in that plane will take a job flying it for free? Not bloody likely.

The "job" listed is a pathetic joke. They will get what the pay for, no doubt about it.

 

[MFT1Air]

You think somebody that's typed in that plane will take a job flying it for free? Not bloody likely.

The "job" listed is a pathetic joke. They will get what the pay for, no doubt about it.

It doesn't say you have to be typed. It says they provide training. Again, I don't know what that means.

Help me here. . .how do you get SIC time with a Part 91 single pilot aircraft? I'm under the impression you can't. I'm sure someone can substantiate with facts.

Again, it looks like a glorified "jump" seat. You're right. It's not classified as a job at least from my viewpoint. Hence, no need to pay anyone.

Now, that makes sense.