KA200 Job Offer

[KLB]

Just to clarify, the position is right seat under Part 91. I am not a required crewmember. Therefore, it is more of a "time building" position. Does that even matter? Should the pay vary depending on if it is 135 or 91?

Yes it matters. I have a buddy that flies right seat in King Airs and various other aircraft and is paid atleast twice that. You're usually their for passenger comfort. A lot of passengers are not comfortable flying with just one passenger up front. These passengers expect you to be there if there is a problem and you should be paid as such.

 

[MikeOH58]

I just got offered a f/o position on a king air (Part 91). It would pay somewhere between $100-$150 a day. Not sure how many days a month yet. I would like to get the opinions of people with more experience than myself about whether that pay rate seems reasonable. It sounds ok to me, but I may be suffering from "Holy crap, I get to fly something bigger than a 172" syndrome!

$100-150 a day is garbage and a slap in the face. Do not take it. I know it seems like a great gig right now while flight instructing, but if I were you i'd either negotiate a higher pay rate, or wait it out...Trust me, this wont be your only opportunity.

I started flying right seat in a King Air (P91) a little over a year ago. Day rate was $300. The way I came up with this rate was because I was making 30/hour as a flight instructor. 30x8hours=240 + another two hours on top of that for the aircraft being a King Air. Didn't matter whether I flew a trip that was 2 hours long or 10 hours long. If they wanted to pay me a "day" rate it should be comparible to what I would be making a day as a flight instructor. Now was I ever billing for 10 hours a day as a CFI? Maybe once, if ever...But to me, I considered it time away from my CFI job where I could have potentially been billing those hours.

Recently I went to Flight Safety and took a PIC checkride, and my day rate is now $400 (two pilot) and $500 (single pilot).

Again, do not settle for 100-150 a day. Tell them they can blow it our your arse. Your worth more. And if you do negotiate a higher rate and do take the job, make sure you are paid the same flying date rate as non flying day rate ie- overnights....If your making say 200 a day, and have a trip on Monday, spend the next 2 days sitting in west palm beach, and dont fly again until thursday, you should be paid $800. Full day rate on non flying days.

goodluck and keep us posted

 

[guywhoflies]

Mike,
thanks for the advice. That is the type of perspective I was looking for, from someone who has done a part 91 king air right seat gig. Anyway, it is still up in the air. I will let everyone know how it turns out. Thanks again.

 

[TangoBravo]

Mike,
thanks for the advice. That is the type of perspective I was looking for, from someone who has done a part 91 king air right seat gig. Anyway, it is still up in the air. I will let everyone know how it turns out. Thanks again.

I'd go for it. Not because I think the pay is fair, NO!
Because before you know it some of your Pilot buddies will offer to do the job for 100/ day or free. The owner will laugh all the way to the bank, and someone else will collect good experience into their logbook.
This is surely not the time to count dimes. I promise - someone will steal that job from you. The seat will be filled @ 150/ day, and it's either you or someone else.

 

[PaulRix]

I have to agree with TangoBravo. If you have an opportunity then grab it with both hands and get your foot in the door.

Heck, if I had adopted the "I won't fly for less than $300-$400 a day" attitude when I started out as a low time King Air co-pilot I am pretty sure I wouldn't be flying as a King Air captain right now (earning what I think is not a bad wage all things considered).

My boss has no shortage of pilot resume's on his desk from pilots who would give their right arm for the opportunity to fly a King Air. Don't shoot yourself in the foot.

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

I have to agree with TangoBravo. If you have an opportunity then grab it with both hands and get your foot in the door.

Heck, if I had adopted the "I won't fly for less than $300-$400 a day" attitude when I started out as a low time King Air co-pilot I am pretty sure I wouldn't be flying as a King Air captain right now (earning what I think is not a bad wage all things considered).

My boss has no shortage of pilot resume's on his desk from pilots who would give their right arm for the opportunity to fly a King Air. Don't shoot yourself in the foot.

Which is everything that is wrong with aviation.

 

[PaulRix]

It's the basic economics of supply and demand. Plenty of pilots, few pilot positions.

You can hold out, abide by other's 'holier than thou' principles and not fly. Alternatively, you can grab the opportunity, gain experience and thereby increase your value in the marketplace. Which do you think will advance your career faster (and subsequently increase your salary) ?

When there are more pilot jobs than pilots the whole dynamic will change. I really doubt that will happen in the near future though (if ever).

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

Maybe, but it is what it is. It's the basic economics of supply and demand. Plenty of pilots, few pilot positions.

You can hold out and abide by other's high principles and not fly. Alternatively, you can grab the opportunity, gain experience and thereby increase your value in the marketplace. Which do you think will advance your career faster (and subsequently increase your salary) ?

So instead of trying to fix the problem and raise the bar for everyone else, you are just going to submit and work for sub-par pay? You are supposed to be a professional, why not act like one and work for more than slave wages. I never did contract work for less than $300 a day, even when I was a 500 hour rookie. Most of the time I would get that, even from places that normally paid less.

If it worked for you, good, but it doesn't make it right.

 

[roundout]

I have to agree with TangoBravo. If you have an opportunity then grab it with both hands and get your foot in the door.

Heck, if I had adopted the "I won't fly for less than $300-$400 a day" attitude when I started out as a low time King Air co-pilot I am pretty sure I wouldn't be flying as a King Air captain right now (earning what I think is not a bad wage all things considered).

My boss has no shortage of pilot resume's on his desk from pilots who would give their right arm for the opportunity to fly a King Air. Don't shoot yourself in the foot.

Are you proud of this?

 

[PaulRix]

So instead of trying to fix the problem and raise the bar for everyone else, you are just going to submit and work for sub-par pay? You are supposed to be a professional, why not act like one and work for more than slave wages. I never did contract work for less than $300 a day, even when I was a 500 hour rookie. Most of the time I would get that, even from places that normally paid less.

If it worked for you, good, but it doesn't make it right.

My professionalism is not in question here, and never did I say I was paid slave wages. That comment was out of line and frankly offensive.

It is very easy for people who are established to throw out the 'don't lower the bar' line.

When you are starting out it is tough (I had it much easier than most). Any opportunity to further your career has to be looked at when you are trying to get on the first rung of the ladder. When you are that green, you frankly are not worth a huge amount in a King Air or similar. You still have a whole lot to learn at that point. So if an opportunity comes along that lets you get some experience, log some multi-turbine time and learn something at the same, I think the amount you get paid is a secondary factor at that point. Once you have some experience under your belt then you can start expecting better compensation.

It's just my personal opinion. I don't expect you to agree, I do expect you to be civil.

 

[PaulRix]

Are you proud of this?

I have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. I have worked hard and achieved what I set out to do. Who are you to judge? You don't even know me.

 

[MFT1Air]

So instead of trying to fix the problem and raise the bar for everyone else, you are just going to submit and work for sub-par pay? You are supposed to be a professional, why not act like one and work for more than slave wages. I never did contract work for less than $300 a day, even when I was a 500 hour rookie. Most of the time I would get that, even from places that normally paid less.

If it worked for you, good, but it doesn't make it right.

My initial belief is you're deluding yourself, but I'll defer forming a substantive opinion until I have more fact to substantiate my foundation. Those hackneyed cliche's about "raising the bar" for more pay. Cmon now, with the basics of supply and demand, everyone wants more for less, and with quality pilots being within a specified range, they can . . .and will find good/great pilots for less money.

If not, like the U.S. industry in general, they'll go elsewhere to find what they need. . .not that have to do that.

Help me to understand YOUR viewpoint. Many a pilot right now are furloughed. . .you're saying to those guys to withhold taking lower paying jobs (vice "no job") for more pay?

 

[MFT1Air]

Are you proud of this?

What's "pride" have to do with not being able to feed your family because you're an unemployed pilot? Pride huh? Real smart.

Pride - as in ego. . .which gets deflated quite easily come recession or layoffs/furloughs.

Pride is "relative." Unsupported. . .downright dumb.

. . .but I'm open to a more supportive, grounded point of view. . .something other than what one believes or feels they deserve to be paid.

 

[granlistillo]

MFT1AIR,
Excellent points. I tend to agree. Without nastily engaging the other point of view and bring this down into a "P" contest, following their logic I would say the only ones who "don't" lower the bar are military trained pilots who start day one of flight school getting paid a commissioned officer (or warrant) salary.
About everyone else, must get the initial experience and their pay directly affects that. Does a flight instructor making $10-$20 an hour lower the bar lets say for someone who wants to be "a career instructor"? Is accepting 20K a year for reserve flying a regional jet lowering the bar?

I just sometimes think there is a lot of hypocrisy in this biz.

For the original poster, by all means you should be paid, but when negotiating your pay, take into account what that flight time is worth to you. And yes, you will be competing with guys that go to Eaglejet and buy king air sic time. If you dont need the experience, then by all means hold out for a captain position and the associated salary. I may not like my RJ FO pay, but at the end of the day until I have the experience to get to my "ultimate gig", I get paid in flight time.

Remember, a lot of employers who pay for a type (not required here) may get shafted when the pilot walks for greener pastures.

 

[MFT1Air]

MFT1AIR,
Excellent points. I tend to agree. Without nastily engaging the other point of view and bring this down into a "P" contest, following their logic I would say the only ones who "don't" lower the bar are military trained pilots who start day one of flight school getting paid a commissioned officer (or warrant) salary.
About everyone else, must get the initial experience and their pay directly affects that. Does a flight instructor making $10-$20 an hour lower the bar lets say for someone who wants to be "a career instructor"? Is accepting 20K a year for reserve flying a regional jet lowering the bar?

I just sometimes think there is a lot of hypocrisy in this biz.

For the original poster, by all means you should be paid, but when negotiating your pay, take into account what that flight time is worth to you. And yes, you will be competing with guys that go to Eaglejet and buy king air sic time. If you dont need the experience, then by all means hold out for a captain position and the associated salary. I may not like my RJ FO pay, but at the end of the day until I have the experience to get to my "ultimate gig", I get paid in flight time.

Remember, a lot of employers who pay for a type (not required here) may get shafted when the pilot walks for greener pastures.

Thanks. I was truly becoming annoyed with this underpaid "poor us" mentality. I spent many a year in the military, and I was proud of the service I provided; I certainly wasn't proud of the pay. I felt I deserved more, and many a lobbyist fought for me to get more. Fact is, I liked what I did. No one should ever argue/debate they shouldn't be paid more, but no one should bash anyone for accepting less pay especially with very few options out there.

Now, if I missed anyone's viewpoint, I'll apologize in advance and ask for clarification. I simply wonder how they can support their position without having to reminence about the past.

 

[KLB]

I wouldn't do it. I'd wait my turn and gain more experience. At some point there is a standard that needs to be upheld. If we keep undercutting each other, we'll be flying right seat in king airs for less than minimum wage. If you undercut someone, it most likely means that you don't have the experience to be flying that aircraft anyways.

 

[docflyer]

$150 is too low. I would say $250 minimum.
I started out the same way 400 hrs right seat in a KA 200. Luckily I had captains that looked out for me and taught me how taking a low wage can hurt the industry. I think many of us, corporate especially, get frustrated because we see somebody spend millions on an aircraft that will be used to transport company executives and/or family members and then they try and get a pilot to fly it for minimum wage. Pilot wage is a cost of ownership - just as much as maintenance, insurance, etc. If they can't afford to pay the proper pilot wage, they shouldn't be owning a corporate aircraft. I know this starts getting fuzzy when we are talking about a non-required crewmember, but if they want somebody in that seat for safety reasons that can land the aircraft safely, they need to pay appropriately.

 

[PaulRix]

I really think you guys are failing to factor in the value of the opportunity to gain experience into your equation. A low time guy with little or no Multi-Turbine time is really in no position to demand anything. It is a different story if you have several hundred hours in type etc. To start with, you are there to LEARN, just as you were when you were building time for your commercial license.

So, yes, an operator may get a 'cheap' co-pilot to start with, but the value of that time to a low hours pilot is very high (how many of us could go out and rent a King Air to build time in?).

I have no argument that a pilot should be paid what they are worth. Once you have experience you are worth a lot. When you first climb into something like a King Air it is a different story (especially if you haven't been to formal initial training). To anyone who gets the opportunity to gain experience I still say grab it with both hands. To those who managed to gain experience while getting paid $300-400 a day from day one I say well done, but don't look down or belittle those who haven't had the same opportunity. Flame away.

 

[Avalon781ML]

I really think you guys are failing to factor in the value of the opportunity to gain experience into your equation. A low time guy with little or no Multi-Turbine time is really in no position to demand anything. It is a different story if you have several hundred hours in type etc. To start with, you are there to LEARN, just as you were when you were building time for your commercial license.

So, yes, an operator may get a 'cheap' co-pilot to start with, but the value of that time to a low hours pilot is very high (how many of us could go out and rent a King Air to build time in?).

I have no argument that a pilot should be paid what they are worth. Once you have experience you are worth a lot. When you first climb into something like a King Air it is a different story (especially if you haven't been to formal initial training). To anyone who gets the opportunity to gain experience I still say grab it with both hands. To those who managed to gain experience while getting paid $300-400 a day from day one I say well done, but don't look down or belittle those who haven't had the same opportunity. Flame away.

First of all if you are in the right seat you are not there to LEARN.... and if you think that is part of the reasoning behind accepting a lower wage you are doing yourself and the owner/operator a disservice by occupying that seat..... get out. People need to stop trying to rush their careers... the more you rush the more trouble I think you will have to deal with over time. Relax... flying isn't going to stop all together in the next week or so. If you are a commercial pilot you and you are in a position to fly a King Air/Metro/Jetstream....etc. you absolutely need to hold out for a decent paying gig. Stop cutting everyone elses throat by flying for $100 a day or whatever you low timers are proposing. Its not fair to those who are experienced for you to be undercutting them when they actually contribute to the safety and operation of a flight because they aren't LEARNING and aren't low time. If you aren't worth 300-400 a day when you first climb into a plane then stay out.

 

[MFT1Air]

At some point there is a standard that needs to be upheld.

What, from your perspective, is "the standard?" You based this "standard" upon what?

If we keep undercutting each other, we'll be flying right seat in king airs for less than minimum wage.

OK, so what is "minimum wage" for a right seater? What do you compare those wages? I'm curious? This is a King Air 200. How different is this aircraft from . . .say a regional jet where those guys make what. . .19K? Help me to better understand.

If you undercut someone, it most likely means that you don't have the experience to be flying that aircraft anyways.

Oh? And again, exactly how much "experience" do you believe is appropriate?