Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's?

[Cruise]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

I'm all for the basics but the problem with that is people will never leave. What would be more important to you? Making 80K having a lot of the month off flying an RJ or having to relocate to Alaska to fly an MD11 making 100K but being gone most of the time? Or better yet move to ATL/ORD/JFK and be on reserve for indefinetly never seeing 80K again for another decade.

That's fine. Obviously, making the move to a legacy vs. staying at a regional airline is a personal decision. However, I know I will be jumping at the chance, given the opportunity. However, if that chance never comes, I'm going to do everything in my power to fight for the betterment of the entire profession....starting by improving conditions at the regional level.

 

[fender_jag]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Pure energy.

Disfunctioonnnnnnnnnn...

I wanna know, what you're thinking...

Tell me what's on your minnnnnnd!

Thanks a lot - now I've got that song stuck in my head. :buck:

As to the light at the end of the tunnel, Cruise is absolutely right. If there is little to no movement, strive to make your current working conditions as tolerable as possible.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

I'm all for the basics but the problem with that is people will never leave.

I would. At a regional you're constantly living in fear of the other guy undercutting you. At a major, you're working for the company that makes the decision on who to go with. Odds of losing you job to another airline that just underbid are significantly reduced. I'll take the dip in pay for a couple of years in order to get that kind of job security. There's no guarantee that Pinnacle will be around post 2017. If Delta decides to award our flying to Mesaba, Compass, Mesa, Comair, Republic, XJT or whomever, there goes my job and I'm back at square one. There's no guarantee a major would be around past then, but the odds are better.

 

[wheelsup]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

$80K's not all that hard to make when you're a noobie at the majors during your first few years.

Plus I only sat reserve for about two weeks and that was at Skyway. Maybe a week at Southernjets.

Not trying to discredit anything you're saying, but let's just keep it on the reality road.

And I've been an FO at a commuter for almost 3.5 years with a base pay of $33,000/year, chances are it'll extend to 4-4.5 even if the economy gets back on track in the next 6 months.

This is the new reality.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

And I've been an FO at a commuter for almost 3.5 years with a base pay of $33,000/year, chances are it'll extend to 4-4.5 even if the economy gets back on track in the next 6 months.

This is the new reality.

Matt, how far are you from upgrading with the recalls and re-upgrades at Whisky?

 

[Polar742]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

That may be true for now. However, we must eliminate this mind-set. As long as people believe a "regional sucks...but it's ok, 'cause it's a regional" we will never break from the poor work rules/ pay because some pilots think it's an acceptable sacrifice. WELL, I'm here to tell everyone (I know many are already aware), this isn't acceptable! We must fight to make the regional level as good as possible and settle for nothing. Of course many, if not all, would like to continue up the food-chain and land the coveted legacy job. But, the harsh reality is that just might not happen. As such, we must improve all aspects of regional life....and that starts by exterminating the "stepping stone" mentality w/ extreme prejudice.

Regional airlines are no longer the stepping stone they once were......you could easily spend your entire career there. Better start fighting for industry reformation now!

Post of the week by Cruise.

$80K's not all that hard to make when you're a noobie at the majors during your first few years.

Plus I only sat reserve for about two weeks and that was at Skyway. Maybe a week at Southernjets.

Not trying to discredit anything you're saying, but let's just keep it on the reality road.

Doug,

I have much respect for you, but I've met far more people at mainlines that sat reserve for over 12 years, or hired, furloughed, recalled, furloughed with about 3 years out of 16 they've been working for mainline. Granted, that's from interfacing with USAir pilots for a decade (with a joyus break in the DL system for 3 years), and it severely implanted the other side of mainline flying. One guy I spoke with was in the last 100 or so at US Air after the furloughs in '89. Between '89 and when he joined RAH in 06, his best year at US was 104k.

I was in PHL fixing to take a flight out. Started talking to a guy in uniform (as I tended to seek them out as we were almost always full cabin + jump and crunched for time once the plane got in). He'd put a bid in for DCA 737 CA like a decade prior. He got awarded it. He was pissed because he was 55 and would never get off short call RSV in DCA.

There are people that are lucky, hustled and had the opportunity to do what you did. Some are at UPS, some are at SWA and a few other places. There are just as many that had the experience of career RSV FO making guarantee on the lowest paying equipment in the most expensive base for a crashpad with short call RSV. These guys did everything "right" got on with a major at late-20 or early-30 something, and still didn't reap the benefits.

So in the end, it is still a roll of the dice. Everyone hopes it comes up boxcars when your chip is in the square.

 

[wheelsup]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Matt, how far are you from upgrading with the recalls and re-upgrades at Whisky?

I'm pretty close but we have to upgrade first, and there are a lot of people behind me that have been here a while too.

They're talking about upgrading again in April but it's not that many people, that'll be almost a year or so from the last upgrade class.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Skydog is a pro management, anti union, anti pilot. He spent most of his days a crew scheduler and behind a desk decided to try flying and didn't like it. All of his latest posts at least have been anti pilot. It's painfully obvious that he never made it past the entry level flying therefore he has a very negative opinion of the flying profession. All of the people that I know of that have been flying for a while are doing very well and enjoying life. Regionals suck but that's the point, otherwise they wouldn't be regionals, they'd be majors.

And that's the thing...I'm trying to avoid the pro/anti union/management ideas with my previous comments, and just focus on ......as wheelsup put it....the new reality. Until that can get solved somehow, that's just the cards that have to be played it seems.

 

[derg]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Ooh, guess I'd better clarify.

I see it in a two-pronged fashion.

One prong is that if you're at a regional and it blows, best to get involved and make it better because you never know how long the music is going to stay stopped. How many of us were jumping around "lesser" regionals to get to "better" regionals, the music stopped and now they're unhappy? Get involved, make it better because that may be "it" for a lot of us.

The other prong is that if there is an opportunity for a clearly vertical movement, make sure you're prepared for that opportunity (education, experience, freshly having shook the hands of the right people that are willing to help you), but remember to look back and help bring others up or help others that are where you were.

We're never really dead in the water career-wise, and each move isn't going to be comfortable, risk-free or easy, but some of the best opportunities arise when the skies are the darkest.

Got to try to make it better where we are today but be ready to accept the challenge when the door opens to other opportunities.

 

[wheelsup]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

And that's the thing...I'm trying to avoid the pro/anti union/management ideas with my previous comments, and just focus on ......as wheelsup put it....the new reality. Until that can get solved somehow, that's just the cards that have to be played it seems.

One contract for all ALPA carriers regardless of company, has equipment type from 1900-787 on it, same work rules, "this is your payrate if you are ALPA on this airplane".

Problem Solved.

It'll never happen.

 

[Polar742]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Ooh, guess I'd better clarify.

I see it in a two-pronged fashion.

One prong is that if you're at a regional and it blows, best to get involved and make it better because you never know how long the music is going to stay stopped. How many of us were jumping around "lesser" regionals to get to "better" regionals, the music stopped and now they're unhappy? Get involved, make it better because that may be "it" for a lot of us.

The other prong is that if there is an opportunity for a clearly vertical movement, make sure you're prepared for that opportunity (education, experience, freshly having shook the hands of the right people that are willing to help you), but remember to look back and help bring others up or help others that are where you were.

We're never really dead in the water career-wise, and each move isn't going to be comfortable, risk-free or easy, but some of the best opportunities arise when the skies are the darkest.

Got to try to make it better where we are today but be ready to accept the challenge when the door opens to other opportunities.

That's what I figured your position was, and that was a great post.

I share the outlook that you do. I've been fairly lucky without being ambitious in the least in my career. I'm on the shaky end of the ladder right now, but I figure if I get the undesirable certified letter, then I will look for what positive I can make out of it.

I just hope the ideas Cruise and yourself posted, which I, and I'm sure many others, agree with whole-heartedly, will grip others and lay the foundation for the much needed improvements we all need to strive towards.

 

[derg]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

I've become pretty good pals with the ALPA national strike chairman and he thinks we can pull it through, just have to get people off their asses and involved in some fashion.

 

[E_Dawg]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Not too long ago I was at a food court in EWR and witnessed a gaggle of 20-something FOs in short sleeves and ties wearing backpacks and holding large fancy coffees while talking about if ERAU or UND made better pilots. I suppose you just get sucked into that world and become one of them without even knowing it.

I think I'd hate that.

So, who the hell knows!



(Just being a smartass - but that story really did happen - in fact, I saw a mainline Captain sitting near me who glared at them in disgust the entire time they gaggled.)

True, good call!

(Although, I'd hate what you described, as well!)

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

And that's the thing...I'm trying to avoid the pro/anti union/management ideas with my previous comments, and just focus on ......as wheelsup put it....the new reality. Until that can get solved somehow, that's just the cards that have to be played it seems.

Thankfully you can't ignore the realities of the profession.

It's not a secret that the airline industry is a heavily unionized one.

Why ignore it?

The pro/anti union/management ideas do not need to be ignored, they ARE the reality that many of us live with in this industry. I find it woefully ignorant to think that you can just ignore that reality, while trying to address the "new reality" and how best to improve the "new reality" without using the reality of collective bargaining.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Thankfully you can't ignore the realities of the profession.

It's not a secret that the airline industry is a heavily unionized one.

Why ignore it?

The pro/anti union/management ideas do not need to be ignored, they ARE the reality that many of us live with in this industry. I find it woefully ignorant to think that you can just ignore that reality, while trying to address the "new reality" and how best to improve the "new reality" without using the reality of collective bargaining.

Its not ignorant at all. There are some areas that need to be solved in and of themselves first, or other parts of the machine will never be able to function. One of the biggest problems in the whole grand picture is both sides of the equation trying to operate their "machines" without realizing that there are parts that need to be fixed inside; then they scratch their heads and wonder why.....or just point the finger at the other side (the easy fix).

Both the macro as well as the micro problems need to be addressed. Neither side can only expect their portion to be looked at, or a balance will never be found...and this self-licking ice cream cone will never end.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Okay dokey.

I don't see an invisible hand that's going to take care of our collective interests within our profession.

That being said, there are many great people working on the micro (FFD committee for example and contract similarities for each respective company) and macro (ALPA national's various committees addressing numerous aspects of our profession) problems.

Then again, I don't necessarily consider them "problems," but rather just issues that we must address one way or the other. But they are not just going to work themselves out, it's going to take humans putting their skills to work to improve whatever it is they feel like attacking. To that end, it's not a unions job to protect a companies interest. The job of a union is to protect it's members interest. That being said, they certainly can work together (union and company) to achieve a shared goal.

A passive airline member makes not a trade unionist. Which, I'll admit, is a problem. Everyone who is working for a unionized carrier has a role in their union. To what degree is what must be known. But when only 20% of a work group votes on a TA or a resolution, there is a serious problem occurring and the passiveness is amazingly sad and disgraceful considering the hard work that is being accomplished by "volunteers."

 

[joliet]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Its not ignorant at all. There are some areas that need to be solved in and of themselves first, or other parts of the machine will never be able to function. One of the biggest problems in the whole grand picture is both sides of the equation trying to operate their "machines" without realizing that there are parts that need to be fixed inside; then they scratch their heads and wonder why.....or just point the finger at the other side (the easy fix).

Both the macro as well as the micro problems need to be addressed. Neither side can only expect their portion to be looked at, or a balance will never be found...and this self-licking ice cream cone will never end.

Go actually educate yourself instead of trying to argue some nonsense ideals you have percolating in your head. Pickup a book, or two.

 

[derg]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Go actually educate yourself instead of trying to argue some nonsense ideals you have percolating in your head. Pickup a book, or two.

Umm...

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

What, no popcorn smiley? lol

 

[derg]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

It didn't work? Weird. Do we even have one?