Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's?

[skydog]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Ok then

 

[intern_mike]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

The short answer to you is No, there is no light at the end of the tunnel as long as things continue as they have.

I'm not talking about greedy management, non-union pilots, anti-labor government regulations, or low ticket prices. I'm talking about profits. Until airlines figure out how to make money, the pressure to lower labor costs, along with other all other costs, will continue unabated. I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that, until someone can figure out how to make money at this business, don't expect anything to change vis-a-vis wages and working conditions.

Now I am going to jump on the "you knew what you were getting into" bandwagon. But I'm not talking about this airline's payscale, that airlines's work rules, or the other airline's growth prospects. Those things are always changing. I'm talking about your choice to enter an industry that doesn't make money. I don't know what to tell you. You entered a money losing industry. What else could you expect but an overall decrease in the quality of your job?

The good news is that while things may not improve for pilots in general, they can improve for you. Make another choice. Choose another profession. Just because you chose to be a pilot doesn't mean that you always have to be a pilot. You can do other things. If you're smart enough, educated enough, and competent enough to fly airplanes, you are able to change your career path. Make another choice.

Jesus man, why don't we all just blow our brains out. I don't see too many threads about FedEX or UPS pilots complaining. This thread represents the bottom of the line. It's rough going at the regionals, no doubt about it, but to say such negative, speculative, off the cuff comments is not doing any favors to anyone. This industry isn't for everyone, but some of us are trying to make it work. I think it takes a lot of grit and character to stick out through these grim times. I personally believe things will get better, partly because I'm an optimist, and partly because the number of new guys is dwindling. There is a pilot shortage, and when things pick up, we'll all be there to reap the benefits. If you can't hack it, get out. I'll take my uncertain future as a pilot over being a paper pushing desk jockey any day.

 

[Polar742]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

I don't see too many threads about FedEX or UPS pilots complaining.

there is another board that they frequent, and the number of threads of their whining is long, almost infinite.

 

[joliet]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Not anymore. Haven't flown in almost 3 years.

Come back in, the water is warm.

I don't see too many threads about FedEX or UPS pilots complaining.

So naive.

 

[intern_mike]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

I'm not saying the top guys don't have problems, but it's all relative.

 

[Ian_J]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Jesus man, why don't we all just blow our brains out. I don't see too many threads about FedEX or UPS pilots complaining. This thread represents the bottom of the line. It's rough going at the regionals, no doubt about it, but to say such negative, speculative, off the cuff comments is not doing any favors to anyone.

I don't know... a little realism never hurt anyone. Skydog's last paragraph is some pretty good advice.

I personally believe things will get better, partly because I'm an optimist, and partly because the number of new guys is dwindling.

You sure you don't hold that belief because you spent a lot of money at FSA?

If you can't hack it, get out. I'll take my uncertain future as a pilot over being a paper pushing desk jockey any day.

You hear this a lot and I always find it amusing. When someone has the audacity to suggest leaving the airplane driving business one of the first retorts is along the lines of "they can't hack it." Why people choose to get defensive over a comment made in general is interesting. Essentially, you're telling yourself you can "hack it" as a justification to stay in it. A satisfied person wouldn't need to justify it. Along the same lines you further your justification by asserting the only alternative to operating an airplane is being a "paper pushing desk jockey," obviously implying you're much, much better than them. Nevermind the trite idea that the opposite of airplane driver is naturally a desk jockey.

Going straight from college to FSA as an early twenties guy I can see why you're afraid though. You put up a lot of dough to do this and it irks you when people suggest this flying racket ain't all it's cracked up to be because you probably wonder if their right.

And if I'm way off base with my speculations because I don't know you and never met you - ask yourself why in the world it matters to you what skydog thinks? If you wanna fly, fly.But the reality check from the experienced members here probably helps out a lot of people. There are a good number of JC members who never got into professional flying or left professional flying to their betterment thanks to JC advice.

 

[sleepy3528]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

I find it funny. you work for an airline that replaced xjt 50 seaters with a 74 seat prop. When i ended my second yr at xjt and made over 45 grand. Great money? no but i enjoyed a pretty good qol. The problems you are having with your airline are real problems but as soon as your work group gets a decent contract, good pay, and the pilots have a reasonable QOL... you will be undercut by "insert name here" regional. you might even go on a message board and read a post about how one of their pilots cant make ends meet.... at some point you have to see that this vicious cycle we are in is self destructive and getting us nowhere fast.

I wouldnt get too optimistic about growth redeeming your airline choice. Even though you are "expecting growth" doesnt mean anything until you have the airplanes on property and are sitting in one. I am not even talking about the q400... those saabs in houston arent getting any younger and you have competition bidding against you for those props. Not xjt but Commutair apparently. It is all a gamble but If you wanted an enjoyable job then going to an airline known for its poor treatment and low pay... your stacking the deck against yourself.

 

[nocturnalaviator]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

I don't know... a little realism never hurt anyone. Skydog's last paragraph is some pretty good advice.

You sure you don't hold that belief because you spent a lot of money at FSA?

You hear this a lot and I always find it amusing. When someone has the audacity to suggest leaving the airplane driving business one of the first retorts is along the lines of "they can't hack it." Why people choose to get defensive over a comment made in general is interesting. Essentially, you're telling yourself you can "hack it" as a justification to stay in it. A satisfied person wouldn't need to justify it. Along the same lines you further your justification by asserting the only alternative to operating an airplane is being a "paper pushing desk jockey," obviously implying you're much, much better than them. Nevermind the trite idea that the opposite of airplane driver is naturally a desk jockey.

Seriously, get over yourself. It's just a J-O-B. Just like anything else. Put the time in, frustration, etc.. it pays off for what it's worth. IMHO, help others, volunteer for a charity. It may change your prospective outlook on alot of things in life. Rather than ME ME ME. Those who bless others will receive the same blessings if not more. Just my own humble beliefs.

 

[intern_mike]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

I don't know... a little realism never hurt anyone. Skydog's last paragraph is some pretty good advice.

You sure you don't hold that belief because you spent a lot of money at FSA?

You hear this a lot and I always find it amusing. When someone has the audacity to suggest leaving the airplane driving business one of the first retorts is along the lines of "they can't hack it." Why people choose to get defensive over a comment made in general is interesting. Essentially, you're telling yourself you can "hack it" as a justification to stay in it. A satisfied person wouldn't need to justify it. Along the same lines you further your justification by asserting the only alternative to operating an airplane is being a "paper pushing desk jockey," obviously implying you're much, much better than them. Nevermind the trite idea that the opposite of airplane driver is naturally a desk jockey.

Going straight from college to FSA as an early twenties guy I can see why you're afraid though. You put up a lot of dough to do this and it irks you when people suggest this flying racket ain't all it's cracked up to be because you probably wonder if their right.

And if I'm way off base with my speculations because I don't know you and never met you - ask yourself why in the world it matters to you what skydog thinks? If you wanna fly, fly.But the reality check from the experienced members here probably helps out a lot of people. There are a good number of JC members who never got into professional flying or left professional flying to their betterment thanks to JC advice.

Ian, you are right in that I have a lot vested in this career. However, I'm not blind to the reality of the way things are. I also think that it will all be worth it someday. Maybe I'm under some sort of illusion, but I think if you have a passion for something, the risk and sweat is worth it. If you find your situation as a pilot untenable and you feel it is best to leave, best of luck to you. Just don't come back and spew your negative speculative wisdom after the fact, especially when it comes to answering a question no one really has the answer to. I come to this forum for real, tangible advice. Not to hear people dump on the career.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

There are a lot of things horribly wrong with this industry.

But the other day at Starbucks (where else....) I saw a bunch of • looking corporate suits walk in. All strutting their stuff, talking loud, and sucking up to each other. I suppose you just get sucked into that world and become one of them without even knowing it.

I think I'd hate that.

So, who the hell knows!

If you mean the guys that won't get off the phone to order at the counter, I know who you mean. They get mad when my wife refuses to help them until they hang up their cel phones.

 

[Ian_J]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Seriously, get over yourself. It's just a J-O-B. Just like anything else. Put the time in, frustration, etc.. it pays off for what it's worth. IMHO, help others, volunteer for a charity. It may change your prospective outlook on alot of things in life. Rather than ME ME ME. Those who bless others will receive the same blessings if not more. Just my own humble beliefs.

Were you responding to me or the OP? Either way, I agree with what you just said above.

Ian, you are right in that I have a lot vested in this career. However, I'm not blind to the reality of the way things are. I also think that it will all be worth it someday. Maybe I'm under some sort of illusion, but I think if you have a passion for something, the risk and sweat is worth it. If you find your situation as a pilot untenable and you feel it is best to leave, best of luck to you. Just don't come back and spew your negative speculative wisdom after the fact, especially when it comes to answering a question no one really has the answer to. I come to this forum for real, tangible advice. Not to hear people dump on the career.

And I'm not saying it won't be worth it. It very well may be. And piloting is probably a good choice for some people. But there's a large difference between someone "dumping on the career" and explaining realities and viable alternatives if you really look for them.

 

[Ian_J]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

There are a lot of things horribly wrong with this industry.

But the other day at Starbucks (where else....) I saw a bunch of • looking corporate suits walk in. All strutting their stuff, talking loud, and sucking up to each other. I suppose you just get sucked into that world and become one of them without even knowing it.

I think I'd hate that.

So, who the hell knows!

Not too long ago I was at a food court in EWR and witnessed a gaggle of 20-something FOs in short sleeves and ties wearing backpacks and holding large fancy coffees while talking about if ERAU or UND made better pilots. I suppose you just get sucked into that world and become one of them without even knowing it.

I think I'd hate that.

So, who the hell knows!



(Just being a smartass - but that story really did happen - in fact, I saw a mainline Captain sitting near me who glared at them in disgust the entire time they gaggled.)

 

[kellwolf]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Not too long ago I was at a food court in EWR and witnessed a gaggle of 20-something FOs in short sleeves and ties wearing backpacks and holding large fancy coffees while talking about if ERAU or UND made better pilots. I suppose you just get sucked into that world and become one of them without even knowing it.

And after drinking said "large fancy coffees" probably complained about how little money they had. I flew with an FO once that constantly complained about how he couldn't pay his bills, but he still found time and money to drink TWO venti coffees a DAY from Starbucks. I suggested that he could probably pay his entire electric bill if he just cut out Starbucks. Looked at me like I'd lost my mind.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Not too long ago I was at a food court in EWR and witnessed a gaggle of 20-something FOs in short sleeves and ties wearing backpacks and holding large fancy coffees while talking about if ERAU or UND made better pilots. I suppose you just get sucked into that world and become one of them without even knowing it.

I think I'd hate that.

So, who the hell knows!



(Just being a smartass - but that story really did happen - in fact, I saw a mainline Captain sitting near me who glared at them in disgust the entire time they gaggled.)

Not meant for you Ian, just a tag on to your post. For everyone saying how lousy aviation is, remember that it's not every part of aviation. Why everyone thinks that a regional is the only way to get to a major, or even to stay at as a career, is beyond me. Is it the most common direction many go? I suppose. But there are other things to do in aviation that pay well and have little of the BS the airline industry does.....of course, they have their own BS, but everything does.

Just want people to realize when they say....

I come to this forum for real, tangible advice. Not to hear people dump on the career.

....that they realize not ALL of aviation is facing the same problems as the regionals. And Intern Mike, what says that out of FSA, that's the only goal you can shoot for? Unless airline flying is all you've been wanting to do.

I've worked up to cargo flying in the civvie world; then military, and law enforcement, and I've been fine with none of the BS of furloughs, etc.....just other BS to deal with. It's a different kind of dues paying than the airline route, mind you, but its an option. I'd consider the many other places to go (corporate, for example) and not limit yourself.

But if you do choose to limit yourself to the regional route, then as Skydog wrote.....you'll have to live with that choice and everything that comes with it.

There's your real, tangible advice.....amongst many others here.

 

[derg]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Pure speculation.

Pure energy.

Disfunctioonnnnnnnnnn...

I wanna know, what you're thinking...

Tell me what's on your minnnnnnd!

 

[Socal321]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

But if you do choose to limit yourself to the regional route, then as Skydog wrote.....you'll have to live with that choice and everything that comes with it.

Skydog is a pro management, anti union, anti pilot. He spent most of his days a crew scheduler and behind a desk decided to try flying and didn't like it. All of his latest posts at least have been anti pilot. It's painfully obvious that he never made it past the entry level flying therefore he has a very negative opinion of the flying profession. All of the people that I know of that have been flying for a while are doing very well and enjoying life. Regionals suck but that's the point, otherwise they wouldn't be regionals, they'd be majors.

 

[Cruise]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Skydog is a pro management, anti union, anti pilot. He spent most of his days a crew scheduler and behind a desk decided to try flying and didn't like it. All of his latest posts at least have been anti pilot. It's painfully obvious that he never made it past the entry level flying therefore he has a very negative opinion of the flying profession. All of the people that I know of that have been flying for a while are doing very well and enjoying life. Regionals suck but that's the point, otherwise they wouldn't be regionals, they'd be majors.

That may be true for now. However, we must eliminate this mind-set. As long as people believe a "regional sucks...but it's ok, 'cause it's a regional" we will never break from the poor work rules/ pay because some pilots think it's an acceptable sacrifice. WELL, I'm here to tell everyone (I know many are already aware), this isn't acceptable! We must fight to make the regional level as good as possible and settle for nothing. Of course many, if not all, would like to continue up the food-chain and land the coveted legacy job. But, the harsh reality is that just might not happen. As such, we must improve all aspects of regional life....and that starts by exterminating the "stepping stone" mentality w/ extreme prejudice.

Regional airlines are no longer the stepping stone they once were......you could easily spend your entire career there. Better start fighting for industry reformation now!

 

[Socal321]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

I'm all for the basics but the problem with that is people will never leave. What would be more important to you? Making 80K having a lot of the month off flying an RJ or having to relocate to Alaska to fly an MD11 making 100K but being gone most of the time? Or better yet move to ATL/ORD/JFK and be on reserve for indefinetly never seeing 80K again for another decade.

 

[derg]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

$80K's not all that hard to make when you're a noobie at the majors during your first few years.

Plus I only sat reserve for about two weeks and that was at Skyway. Maybe a week at Southernjets.

Not trying to discredit anything you're saying, but let's just keep it on the reality road.

 

[Socal321]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

$80K's not all that hard to make when you're a noobie at the majors during your first few years.

Plus I only sat reserve for about two weeks and that was at Skyway. Maybe a week at Southernjets.

Not trying to discredit anything you're saying, but let's just keep it on the reality road.

Most LCCs, except SWA, and many legacy's don't see 80 until about a decade assuming you didn't go wide body at least on guarantee, source is APC. I just got done talking to an AA MD80 FO his story was very different although they have some really nice reserve options which makes it less painful.... he does have the option of bigger plane and more money but QOL would have beem low.... now obviously at the majors you will top out a lot more than the regionals, at the age of 65!