Is OTS the cement holding the #####ty pay in place?

GnW

New Member
Thoughts? It seems like a lot of you OTS guys are completely PSYCHED about the "great pay" you'll be making as a controller (a Center?! What's THAT MEAN???? durrrr...:drool:).
I guess I'm just as guilty as the rest of you for taking a slot... but with 100 grand in student loans and an aviation background (see:useless), I don't have much of a choice. I went into this (started) prior to the IWRs and a lot of the OTS guys don't seem to mind much about the pay/draconian rules/etc... in fact, they don't even seem to know that the pay used to even be decent.

I know I'm going to get 3 pages of people saying "this isn't a job you do for the pay"
but GUESS WHAT?! It's a JOB. It's the single most important issue. Yeah, it takes some passion. But talking to airplanes doesn't pay the mortgage bill unless you get paid for it. Who knows... maybe this will be a work-release gig soon... but until then...

It seems to me that with this influx of poor, ignorant souls into the profession, the FAA has solidified its authority (as the new guys simply dont know what they could have had) and there will NOT be a return to the old pay level. Ever. It was a pretty genius strategy on the FAA's part.
 

ATLTRACON(ret)

Well-Known Member
This is EXACTLY what the FFAA wants. Drive out the high priced controllers and put "cheap" labor in its place. Who cares if a few smack together...look how much money we saved.
 

pm577

New Member
I think most of us are hoping that future pay levels will return to a more realistic/historical level.

For the level of responsibility and training required, it is clear that ATCers are being underpaid compared to many jobs in private industry. However we also realize there will be a presidential administration change soon, as well as a negotiated contract SOMEDAY.
Eventually IWR will end, and (as someone else has said) the pendulum will swing back in favor of labor.

On the other hand, people also complain about pay without reason, especially unionized labor. There are people at my work who make six figures and complain bitterly about their job... to some extent, these people will never be satisfied. You can pay someone 500k per year, and I bet you'd still get complaints about 'management'.

The comparison most people make is between their current job and FAA wages. As long as the wage is better, or we see that it WILL be better, then working for the FAA is a sound economic decision. Of course, we also understand that for someone working on the greenbook wages, these new people are getting 'shafted', but none the less, it's still quite an opportunity for many of us.
 

GnW

New Member
This is EXACTLY what the FFAA wants. Drive out the high priced controllers and put "cheap" labor in its place. Who cares if a few smack together...look how much money we saved.
they've been planning this for years. "oh, we have hundreds upon hundreds of CTI applicants waiting for a job, and we could try to cover all these retirements that are coming up, but a) we're going to #### them on the pay in 2 years, so we best hold off hiring them and b) congress and the general public don't care as long as we "hire" "controllers" when it gets really bad (see: "____ people at the absolute last second.") oh and we're going to try to "progressively" reduce training time and sign them off before they're ready too... just to be safe."
 

GnW

New Member
I think most of us are hoping that future pay levels will return to a more realistic/historical level.

For the level of responsibility and training required, it is clear that ATCers are being underpaid compared to many jobs in private industry. However we also realize there will be a presidential administration change soon, as well as a negotiated contract SOMEDAY.
Eventually IWR will end, and (as someone else has said) the pendulum will swing back in favor of labor.

On the other hand, people also complain about pay without reason, especially unionized labor. There are people at my work who make six figures and complain bitterly about their job... to some extent, these people will never be satisfied. You can pay someone 500k per year, and I bet you'd still get complaints about 'management'.

The comparison most people make is between their current job and FAA wages. As long as the wage is better, or we see that it WILL be better, then working for the FAA is a sound economic decision. Of course, we also understand that for someone working on the greenbook wages, these new people are getting 'shafted', but none the less, it's still quite an opportunity for many of us.

Yeah, I hope that the pendulum sweeps back, too. But I'm not holding my breath.

Secondly, the economy is in a recession. Everyone still thinks we make 160k/year and drive BMWs. No sympathy will come from congress or anyone else. That stereotype has been built up and ingrained in the public's eye. And it CERTAINLY isn't going to change with Obama in office, like everyone thinks. Hell, Reagan was an ATC proponent before he got hired, too!

On your third point, I agree. And that's kind of my point as well. The OTS guys have no recollection beyond the thought that this job will be "better" than their current job--and thus an improvement. But everyone who has wanted this job for years can only think, "it better get better." If the psyche of the OTS guys outweighs everyone else, it won't improve... because in their eyes, it already is an improvement.
 

csmith_txatc

Well-Known Member
Thoughts? It seems like a lot of you OTS guys are completely PSYCHED about the "great pay" you'll be making as a controller (a Center?! What's THAT MEAN???? durrrr...:drool:).
I guess I'm just as guilty as the rest of you for taking a slot... but with 100 grand in student loans and an aviation background (see:useless), I don't have much of a choice. I went into this (started) prior to the IWRs and a lot of the OTS guys don't seem to mind much about the pay/draconian rules/etc... in fact, they don't even seem to know that the pay used to even be decent.

I know I'm going to get 3 pages of people saying "this isn't a job you do for the pay"
but GUESS WHAT?! It's a JOB. It's the single most important issue. Yeah, it takes some passion. But talking to airplanes doesn't pay the mortgage bill unless you get paid for it. Who knows... maybe this will be a work-release gig soon... but until then...

It seems to me that with this influx of poor, ignorant souls into the profession, the FAA has solidified its authority (as the new guys simply dont know what they could have had) and there will NOT be a return to the old pay level. Ever. It was a pretty genius strategy on the FAA's part.

Well, as one of the OTS guys who is supposedly "PSYCHED about the 'great pay'" I'll chime in on this one.

I realize that a lot of CTI grads are upset that after going into debt to get their degree they have to wait in the same line as people hired OTS to get into the business. With that said, it's not my fault that the OTS hiring has started and that the FAA has put the IWR in place. No, I don't have a CTI degree, but I do have an aviation background (useless or not) and a long time interest to be an ATCS. Just because I made a choice not to go into even further debt by going back to school to do ATC, doesn't mean I am any less worthy of the position.

I know that right now the pay and working conditions suck compared to what they used to be, and I don't know what it's like to have my pay capped/cut and everything that I thought had been negotiated in a legal contract voided. Applying OTS was my shot to get my dream job when I thought it was long past. So, I am sorry if that offends current controllers (some of whom were OTS hires in the 80s I might add) and the recent CTI students. I will not, however, apologize for applying, accepting, and entering the ATC field. I, like many of the other OTS hires, am excited about entering the field and doing something I've wanted to do for a long time. That does not make me a "poor, ignorant soul." I am not satisfied with the current conditions the FAA has imposed, but if I don't take my shot to do this now, I won't get another chance. Once I'm in, I can work with the controller workforce to hopefully correct the situation. Not much I can do without being on the inside first.
 

BoomerSooner77

New Member
Is this what you're afraid of? Notice a complete lack of proper lingo... lol, This would probably be me without any training (or a hurried training).

"There are too many moving thingies on my screen!! Um, hey, AA 247, could you pull over for a minute so I can clear a couple planes out of your way... in fact, hey SW 1469, you pull over too, you're going to fast for me (to supervisor "They have air breaks right?"). SW 2400, yeah, I think I am going to need to you climb 6-1000 bogey 1/4 mile... Um... FASTER FASTER, oh crap, that was close. What the hell is this plane doing over here? I don't have a strip on him... that's it, I am reporting him to the Air Force, he's unidentified I guess." :panic:
 

GnW

New Member
Well, as one of the OTS guys who is supposedly "PSYCHED about the 'great pay'" I'll chime in on this one.

I realize that a lot of CTI grads are upset that after going into debt to get their degree they have to wait in the same line as people hired OTS to get into the business. With that said, it's not my fault that the OTS hiring has started and that the FAA has put the IWR in place. No, I don't have a CTI degree, but I do have an aviation background (useless or not) and a long time interest to be an ATCS. Just because I made a choice not to go into even further debt by going back to school to do ATC, doesn't mean I am any less worthy of the position.

I know that right now the pay and working conditions suck compared to what they used to be, and I don't know what it's like to have my pay capped/cut and everything that I thought had been negotiated in a legal contract voided. Applying OTS was my shot to get my dream job when I thought it was long past. So, I am sorry if that offends current controllers (some of whom were OTS hires in the 80s I might add) and the recent CTI students. I will not, however, apologize for applying, accepting, and entering the ATC field. I, like many of the other OTS hires, am excited about entering the field and doing something I've wanted to do for a long time. That does not make me a "poor, ignorant soul." I am not satisfied with the current conditions the FAA has imposed, but if I don't take my shot to do this now, I won't get another chance. Once I'm in, I can work with the controller workforce to hopefully correct the situation. Not much I can do without being on the inside first.

Hey, I completely understand. I'm 3 classes from graduating and I don't even plan on finishing now that I've been picked up OTS. I'm just as guilty as you (albeit a little more pissed). That's what makes the FAA's plan so beautiful. A new generation of people enter with the rug already pulled out from under them. If something is "normal" to you, you're less likely to fight for something better.
 

FedererFan

New Member
Thoughts? It seems like a lot of you OTS guys are completely PSYCHED about the "great pay" you'll be making as a controller (a Center?! What's THAT MEAN???? durrrr...:drool:).
I guess I'm just as guilty as the rest of you for taking a slot... but with 100 grand in student loans and an aviation background (see:useless), I don't have much of a choice. I went into this (started) prior to the IWRs and a lot of the OTS guys don't seem to mind much about the pay/draconian rules/etc... in fact, they don't even seem to know that the pay used to even be decent.

I know I'm going to get 3 pages of people saying "this isn't a job you do for the pay"
but GUESS WHAT?! It's a JOB. It's the single most important issue. Yeah, it takes some passion. But talking to airplanes doesn't pay the mortgage bill unless you get paid for it. Who knows... maybe this will be a work-release gig soon... but until then...

It seems to me that with this influx of poor, ignorant souls into the profession, the FAA has solidified its authority (as the new guys simply dont know what they could have had) and there will NOT be a return to the old pay level. Ever. It was a pretty genius strategy on the FAA's part.
HAHA, OKAY HOLD ON... LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT!!!.... It is wrong for any OTS person to take this job... or basically your saying its wrong for ANYONE to take the job because it gives the FAA the upperhand).. EXCEPT FOR YOU because you have tons of student loans debt (see quote above), so we are poor and ignorant, however your networth is clse to 100k in the red, however we are bad because we are suppressing the wage (your not tho dont forget your special). Does this seem ridiculous to anyone else.

He claims we are the problem for ###### wages, and then also calls himself part of the problem, but not without declaring himself exempt shortly thereafter.

Your logic is on par with the greatest thinkers of our time, pray tell, why are you doing this job for these (######) wages?
 

pm577

New Member
Once I'm in, I can work with the controller workforce to hopefully correct the situation. Not much I can do without being on the inside first.
Exactly.

I would say the current problems are primarily a union vs. management issue, not a factor in an applicant's decision on whether to accept a job offer. Since an individual has no bearing to negotiate his own starting pay, we hand these rights over to our union to hopefully protect each one of us.

Yes, we could say something like "if no one accepted the job offers, then they would have to increase the wage." But that assumes collective action, and collective action = union action.

Many of these problems are not unique to FAA. Many other union crafts are experiencing contracts that set new-hires on different, and forever lower, payscales. However, to some extent, many of these contracts involve current members 'selling' out the new-hires, to preserve their own wages in strict self-interest.

Would many of you old-heads take a 10% pay raise to bust your new-hires wages by 30%? I bet many of you guys would do that. So why should we care about accepting a job that pays less than your current wage?

(Perhaps this is too pessimistic, but I know people at my work willing to sell-out the new-hires for their own job stability.)
 

GnW

New Member
HAHA, OKAY HOLD ON... LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT!!!.... It is wrong for any OTS person to take this job... or basically your saying its wrong for ANYONE to take the job because it gives the FAA the upperhand).. EXCEPT FOR YOU because you have tons of student loans debt (see quote above), so we are poor and ignorant, however your networth is clse to 100k in the red, however we are bad because we are suppressing the wage (your not tho dont forget your special). Does this seem ridiculous to anyone else.

He claims we are the problem for ###### wages, and then also calls himself part of the problem, but not without declaring himself exempt shortly thereafter.

Your logic is on par with the greatest thinkers of our time, pray tell, why are you doing this job for these (######) wages?

i think you are misunderstanding my argument completely. all i am saying is that (yes, even myself included) hiring off the street introduces a new pool of people who haven't done much to get the job nor have they ever experienced the promise of a high wage to get there. an influx of people like this pretty much destroys any hope for higher pay, as they really havent LOST anything and stand only to gain. no, there's nothing you can do about it, and yes, the FAA has probably had this planned for years. i admit my original statement was a little heated... but threads dont go very far if everyone agrees :D
 

AFTOFAAATC

New Member
Or.......... All the OTS applicants could enlist in a branch of the military (Air Force preferably) and work ATC under their pay for four to six years. Talk about not being appreciated by management. It is hard to do your job when you police the people you work for (Pilots/officers). Then we will see what kind of argument you can bring up about pay and the agency as a whole. Pendulum swings, the patient silently wait.
 

AFTOFAAATC

New Member
i think you are misunderstanding my argument completely. all i am saying is that (yes, even myself included) hiring off the street introduces a new pool of people who haven't done much to get the job nor have they ever experienced the promise of a high wage to get there. an influx of people like this pretty much destroys any hope for higher pay, as they really havent LOST anything and stand only to gain. no, there's nothing you can do about it, and yes, the FAA has probably had this planned for years. i admit my original statement was a little heated... but threads dont go very far if everyone agrees :D
How about the influx of OTS hires after the strike? What is their pay like now? What do you think?
 

GnW

New Member
How about the influx of OTS hires after the strike? What is their pay like now? What do you think?
That would be an interesting position paper. But then again, the PATCO strike (supposedly) wasn't about pay. It was about equipment and safety. Also, strangely enough, Reagan started this whole trend of the "military industrial complex" and deficit spending. He sure as hell wasn't pro-union, but he was certainly not what one would call a fiscal conservative.
 

GeorgeM

New Member
... Also, strangely enough, Reagan started this whole trend of the "military industrial complex" and deficit spending. He sure as hell wasn't pro-union, but he was certainly not what one would call a fiscal conservative.
Eisenhower warned about the "military industrial complex" in the 1950's, so it must have already existed. And deficit spending goes back at least as far as Nixon, although Reagan took it to another level.

http://www.ctj.org/html/debt0603.htm
 

Raydon

New Member
one word: Union:yar:

Don't they already have a couple up and running? Why do I feel like the end of anything worth doing in America is drawing near?

-Military: sucks
-Small business: sucks
-Corporate gigs: suck
-Investing : iffy nowadays - sucks
-Being young in a land ruled by greed: Sucks
-Specialized training//employment: sucks
-Federal Employment: ?????
-Working specialized jobs for the FAA: ????

Where's all the money going any way? Seems like bank accounts are more important than national pride and stability of people that would otherwise support it these days... it really gets me going.. and I consider myself a pretty lase faire kind of individual and I tend to avoid temptations of gripe and dissention - but.. seriously.. come on.:banghead:

I'd say when the government stops taking care of it's own - something's about to hit the fan and it ain't roses.
 

Raydon

New Member
Also, strangely enough, Reagan started this whole trend of the "military industrial complex" and deficit spending. He sure as hell wasn't pro-union, but he was certainly not what one would call a fiscal conservative.
Wikipedia defines deregulation as "can be seen as a process by which governments remove, reduce, or simplify restrictions on business and individuals with the intent of encouraging the efficient operation of markets."

See also: Exploitation

:yar:
 
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