the concept goes back much further than that, actually
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deficit_spending
Is OTS the cement holding the #####ty pay in place?
- Thread starter GnW
- Start date
the concept goes back much further than that, actually
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deficit_spending
dofficalatc
New Member
I might as well add my $.02 to this conversation.
Quoting a college instructor of mine "Aviation is CYCLICAL" Right now the FAA is trying to find replacements for all the strike year controllers. Things will then return to where they don't have to worry about hiring massive amounts of controllers from off the street because they will be able to tap the colleges that have ATC programs. It will be no different 25 years from now.
As for the Union protecting the senior controllers. Go figure. Again quoting one of my professors. "The union says it can help you. Howevere, if you are involved in an accident(pilots) they will protect the Captain first and hang the FO out to dry." Not quite his exact words but close enough. We are all going to be screwed by the union at first there is no ifs ands or buts about it.
There you have it my $.02.
Quoting a college instructor of mine "Aviation is CYCLICAL" Right now the FAA is trying to find replacements for all the strike year controllers. Things will then return to where they don't have to worry about hiring massive amounts of controllers from off the street because they will be able to tap the colleges that have ATC programs. It will be no different 25 years from now.
As for the Union protecting the senior controllers. Go figure. Again quoting one of my professors. "The union says it can help you. Howevere, if you are involved in an accident(pilots) they will protect the Captain first and hang the FO out to dry." Not quite his exact words but close enough. We are all going to be screwed by the union at first there is no ifs ands or buts about it.
There you have it my $.02.
BoomerSooner77
New Member
I assume dues are % of pay or does everyone pay in the same amount? I could understand where there would be a bias to protect those that pay MORE dues more than others.
it's a percent, 1.5% IIRC.
as for the unions protecting the senior, it's not always the case. when a vote comes around that benefits the senior, they're the few and the junior are the majority, IE the reason mandatory retirement will probably never go away..
RetiredATLATC
Well-Known Member
Here's my 1.4 cents seeing how a 30% pay cut was enacted. You obviously don't know crap about NATCA. We protect EVERYONE...we are all controllers...even the new hires that call in 10 hours before their next shift to say that they won't get enough sleep before the next shift so please put me on sick leave...we protect ALL, not just some.
BoomerSooner77
New Member
He's not just whistin' Dixie! I was actually reading some greivance cases in which NATCA spent a great deal of time fighting for OJT ATCs because they were either disciplined or let go for one reason or another and based on the comments of the arbitrators, they overwhelmingly sided with NATCA.
I don't feel sorry for CTI grads...first of all its not guaranteed for you to make it just b/c you went to school for it, and second, all you do is take 4 classes---which I'd rather take at OKC in 5 weeks than waste a minimum of 2 semesters. Hey i give the props to the OTS, there's many that have paid their dues either in the military, college grads, etc.............Also, if you paid 100k for an education---geez, what are you doing in CTI, you obviously overpaid for your education. Anyhow, right now might not be the best time to get a raise in the gov't, but i'd like for you to take your 100k education, somewhere outside of the gov't and see how good of a salary you can get. Hey once you're in, you're in, nothing beats the govt. Quit crying, and just make sure you don't let the blips get too close to one another!
GnW
New Member
4 classes? hell, i wish :buck:
ATC labs alone were ~30 credits @ 3 credits per course.
i see your point. however, you're missing the point of the thread...
FedererFan
New Member
And I got a headache the other day, WHY BUSH, WHY !!!!
ITS ALL BUSH's FAULT, EVERYTHING. I couldnt find my car keys for like 5 minutes the other day, it totally sucked. F U Bush.
get serious:banghead:
GnW
New Member
Kanye is racist
pm577
New Member
Well, Bush appoints the FAA administrator, and the administrator thereby approves the 'contract'. So the blame should rest on Bush for these union grievances.
Blaming Bush on the economy is debatable, but it's a pretty clear cut case here. Sometimes presidential power is overstated, but on the other hand, sometimes presidential power is UNDERSTATED. If the president doesn't like the ATCers greenbook, then he merely appoints someone to destroy it, and he thereby is accountable for that action.
Even if Bush does not directly approve a contract/rule/regulation, his allowance of those who DO such things is his tacit approval of those actions.
Blaming Bush on the economy is debatable, but it's a pretty clear cut case here. Sometimes presidential power is overstated, but on the other hand, sometimes presidential power is UNDERSTATED. If the president doesn't like the ATCers greenbook, then he merely appoints someone to destroy it, and he thereby is accountable for that action.
Even if Bush does not directly approve a contract/rule/regulation, his allowance of those who DO such things is his tacit approval of those actions.
GnW
New Member
i kind of have to agree. i'm usually not one to point fingers at presidents, but marion was his appointee and i don't think anyone is arguing that she's likely the WORST administrator in the history of the FAA
Raydon
New Member
You can't say bush doesn't like ATC's
Bush doesn't even know what an air traffic controller IS... Hence 9/11. It's Bush's fault.. there was no terrorist attack, ATC was on strike and bush gets on the phone "Air traffic Control? WTF is that? Yeah like we got flyin cars.. screw em, I got bigger things to worry about, like putting food on my family."
anic:
pm577
New Member
I'd like to add another thought:
For someone who is young, without a college degree, and without family responsibilities, this career CAN be an excellent opportunity to make substantially more money.
I'm a part-time student at UC Berkeley, and I can tell you that MANY college graduates get out without decent jobs. Many of my friends from high school went on to college and graduated, and what are they doing now? Either unemployed or stuck doing dead-end jobs at $15 bucks an hour (if that), living in Northern California out of their parents' house.
If you'd like to sample what a college graduate makes out of a prestigious college like UC Berkeley, check out http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/major.stm
For example, someone with a major in English has an avg. starting pay of $35k. Even a more useful degree like Economics starts out at $55k according to their surveys. Most of these students are California natives and will continue to live in CA, so that makes the situation that much worse.
The fact that an OTS has no college debt, and no lost wages from 4+ years of sitting in school, then being an ATC is one heck of a deal. My offer letter starts me at nearly $44k when I finish OKC and arrive at the terminal. Compared to the way MANY people have it in America, this really isn't bad. True, in California, a police officer may make more money, but these guys are working in dangerous areas, and their wage merely makes up for the extremely hazardous conditions. An ATCer may experience stress, but can't be killed in his line of service (except for that odd mid-air case in Europe where the guy was murdered by a family member).
For someone who is young, without a college degree, and without family responsibilities, this career CAN be an excellent opportunity to make substantially more money.
I'm a part-time student at UC Berkeley, and I can tell you that MANY college graduates get out without decent jobs. Many of my friends from high school went on to college and graduated, and what are they doing now? Either unemployed or stuck doing dead-end jobs at $15 bucks an hour (if that), living in Northern California out of their parents' house.
If you'd like to sample what a college graduate makes out of a prestigious college like UC Berkeley, check out http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/major.stm
For example, someone with a major in English has an avg. starting pay of $35k. Even a more useful degree like Economics starts out at $55k according to their surveys. Most of these students are California natives and will continue to live in CA, so that makes the situation that much worse.
The fact that an OTS has no college debt, and no lost wages from 4+ years of sitting in school, then being an ATC is one heck of a deal. My offer letter starts me at nearly $44k when I finish OKC and arrive at the terminal. Compared to the way MANY people have it in America, this really isn't bad. True, in California, a police officer may make more money, but these guys are working in dangerous areas, and their wage merely makes up for the extremely hazardous conditions. An ATCer may experience stress, but can't be killed in his line of service (except for that odd mid-air case in Europe where the guy was murdered by a family member).
GnW
New Member
See I think you're just proving my point. It's such a great opportunity that nobody in their right mind is going to pass it up, since they haven't really been shafted... yet. In comparison with going to a CTI school or serving in the military, you never dreamed about being an FAA controller for years and making good money. You never had to be told "well, no, i know we told you you'd be making this... and we've known that wouldnt be the case for a while, but we never informed you. OH AND BY THE WAY, we're hiring people without any aviation experience whatsoever now... even though we told you that the only way to become a controller was to go to one of our ridiculously expensive schools or join the military. Good Luck!"
So in that respect, I think OTS is kind of putting a damper on negotiating better pay--but through no fault of the applicants.
We are the illegal immigrants of the ATC world... equally seeking a "green" goal. The opinions are uniform depending on what side of the fence you are on currently, and both views are equally true to the speaker. However, the major playing factor, is that we can be ousted if we can't keep up and show productivity. This will all balance in time, some will be happy, some will be disgruntled, and some will be unemployed.. The sun will come back up the day after, and the day after that, and hopefully the jets will still arrive and depart in one peice and preferrably not fused together in any fashion as those days keep coming.
Even though you make a valid point, easy with the blanket statement tough guy. I do not consider myself poor or ignorant. Perhaps you could word it a bit better, as there are some folks applying to this profession that have a respectable IQ, and a respectable wage. Don't say that I am being too sensitive as I am not. Just don't start throwing the word "ignorant" around to describe those who are applying. It makes you look ignorant.
dofficalatc
New Member
So the NATCA protects all controllers. I will take your word for it for know ATL.
