Impossible battle

[jynxyjoe]

I'm on a new airplane and a new side of the fence and I'm not even 100 hours in and the operation is driving me nuts. Firstly let me freely admit I'm sure I'm doing some thing that make guys go nuts too but how do I explore fixes to problems when EVERYONE does them?

Let me explain. Two big things that bug the crap out of me is power lever usage and spoiler usage. If you are ripping the power levers up and down or ripping the spoilers forward and back you are simply killing my buzz. The problem is everyone in Kennedy I've flown with so far does it, how does a lowly FO broach this subject? Well one guy hasn't so there's hope, but he's from Arkansas and they just make people better out there I'm convinced.

I got to tell you I'm embarrassed to look at the passengers sometimes after some of this crap, but is there anything I can honestly do other than relax and deal with it? Anyone have any ideas? I could ask pro stands but jesus I'm going to be calling on everyone I fly with? I don't mean to turn this into a Colgan v pinnacle v mesaba thing but we didn't beat on the planes like this on the old -900. All I'm talking about is a slow application of power or retarding of the throttles, and a slow application or retraction of the spoilers. That's it. How is this not second nature? I'm sure I do annoying ass crap (like talk about the saab/1900/or 900) and I'm willing to trade to get some movement on this but holy crap, I'm not asking for the world here.

What would you all do? Talk to pro stands? Talk to training? Training I don't think is much help because the guys who have rides tell me the only thing that the guys riding along talk about is weather or not they do their flows in exactly the right direction and tempo's (thus the "Fire Faddi" line on the back of most compass cards). Honestly if Pinnacle was a twitter account #fireFaddi would be the #1 trend. I'm afraid Pro Stands is going to ask me "what do you think we can really do?" and I don't know what the answer is. I think this is one time I'll just have to suffer in silence unless you all have any ideas.

Seriously, just bring the power up/down slow and spoilers (if you have to use them at all) usage in a slow and comfortable manner. I swear to God it seems like everyone's goal is to scare the crap out of the people in back and slam them around in the most aggressive manner possible.

 

[ppragman]

Bring it up with every captain you fly with.

 

[ctab5060X]

Talk to your local LCAs. I gather you are on the -200 out of Kennedy and at least when I was flying the -200 for 9E, we were taught not to rip the thrust levers up and down and make drastic and fast power changes. Same with the spoilers... we were taught one click at a time both for extension and retraction.

See what a LCA has to say about the matter and maybe, just maybe, you can bring it up enough to them that they can issue and Ops Bulletin on the subject.

I agree with you about not scaring the crap out of everybody.

 

[jynxyjoe]

alrighty

 

[JLF]

Some people care, some people don't. Some people fly passengers, some people fly airplanes... My curiosity is how could someone rip on the levers and at the end of the flight not feel like they suck?

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I feel you man. My base is a small base and was made up of really professional people that I really enjoyed flying with.

With a new base opening we've lost a lot of the great people and I haven't been impressed with the replacements.

Thrust levers rapidly back and forth, same with the spoilers, yanking the plane off the ground on rotation, not putting their headset on until we take the runway, ignoring checklists until they're called for by me (the f/o), among other things I don't feel comfortable sharing in public.

Now I try my damndest to be standard, but as long as somebody is trying, I'm more than ok with not being perfect, hell I know I'm not. But I wish the people who slacked off knew how much harder it makes it on the other guys when they're lazy. Somebody has to make sure that stuff gets done.

It is frustrating, there's a difference between not knowing and not caring. When you tell someone who doesn't know, they usually at least ATTEMPT to fix things. If they don't care, you're just spinning your wheels.

 

[Gonzo]

This is also a pet peeve of mine. Here is what I do but keep in mind I am kind of a dick so my way might not work for you. I look at them and ask are you married? I then ask if their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend like it rough. 9 out of 10 get it at that point.

 

[Itchy]

Ever been asked "Were you in the Navy?"

 

[Pilotforhire587]

This is also a pet peeve of mine. Here is what I do but keep in mind I am kind of a dick so my why might not work for you. I look at them and ask are you married? I then ask if their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend like it rough. 9 out of 10 get it at that point.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[z987k]

Ever been asked "Were you in the Navy?"

I was gonna say, maybe they're reformed turbo prop pilots. Fly it like you stole it! Me and UAL747400 both know this one guy... I laugh so hard when I think about the slamming of power levers.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Ever been asked "Were you in the Navy?"

Carrier landings aside ("The terminal is on the other end of the airport, Holmes!"), slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

I was gonna say, maybe they're reformed turbo prop pilots. Fly it like you stole it! Me and UAL747400 both know this one guy... I laugh so hard when I think about the slamming of power levers.

It's possible to fly an airplane smoothly, and, er, "fun"ly.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I'm on a new airplane and a new side of the fence and I'm not even 100 hours in and the operation is driving me nuts. Firstly let me freely admit I'm sure I'm doing some thing that make guys go nuts too but how do I explore fixes to problems when EVERYONE does them?

Let me explain. Two big things that bug the crap out of me is power lever usage and spoiler usage. If you are ripping the power levers up and down or ripping the spoilers forward and back you are simply killing my buzz. The problem is everyone in Kennedy I've flown with so far does it, how does a lowly FO broach this subject? Well one guy hasn't so there's hope, but he's from Arkansas and they just make people better out there I'm convinced.

I got to tell you I'm embarrassed to look at the passengers sometimes after some of this crap, but is there anything I can honestly do other than relax and deal with it? Anyone have any ideas? I could ask pro stands but jesus I'm going to be calling on everyone I fly with? I don't mean to turn this into a Colgan v pinnacle v mesaba thing but we didn't beat on the planes like this on the old -900. All I'm talking about is a slow application of power or retarding of the throttles, and a slow application or retraction of the spoilers. That's it. How is this not second nature? I'm sure I do annoying ass crap (like talk about the saab/1900/or 900) and I'm willing to trade to get some movement on this but holy crap, I'm not asking for the world here.

What would you all do? Talk to pro stands? Talk to training? Training I don't think is much help because the guys who have rides tell me the only thing that the guys riding along talk about is weather or not they do their flows in exactly the right direction and tempo's (thus the "Fire Faddi" line on the back of most compass cards). Honestly if Pinnacle was a twitter account #fireFaddi would be the #1 trend. I'm afraid Pro Stands is going to ask me "what do you think we can really do?" and I don't know what the answer is. I think this is one time I'll just have to suffer in silence unless you all have any ideas.

Seriously, just bring the power up/down slow and spoilers (if you have to use them at all) usage in a slow and comfortable manner. I swear to God it seems like everyone's goal is to scare the crap out of the people in back and slam them around in the most aggressive manner possible.

Congratulations, you work with pilots, not airmen:

There are airmen and there are pilots: the first being part bird whose view from aloft is normal and comfortable, a creature whose brain and muscles frequently originate movements which suggest flight; and then there are pilots who regardless of their airborne time remain earth-loving bipeds forever. When these latter unfortunates, because of one urge or another, actually make an ascension, they neither anticipate nor relish the event and they drive their machines with the same graceless labor they inflict upon the family vehicle.

- Gann

"You do remember, there are people back there, right?"

 

[purpel]

This is also a pet peeve of mine. Here is what I do but keep in mind I am kind of a dick so my way might not work for you. I look at them and ask are you married? I then ask if their husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend like it rough. 9 out of 10 get it at that point.

Most epic statement I have read all week... Nuff said

 

[///AMG]

Carrier landings aside ("The terminal is on the other end of the airport, Holmes!"), slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

No not carrier landings aside. Same applies there too Being choppy, hamfisted, or whatever else doesn't get you anywhere in any airplane in any kind of aviation. And to be honest, I can't think of a single tactical thing I have done in an airplane where the "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" mantra doesn't apply. Sage advice for all aviators IMHO!

 

[jynxyjoe]

Bring it up with every captain you fly with.

I find, above all things, griping about a pilots technique, creates a crappy crew environment. It would be one thing if I had the callouts and flows perfect, I do not, or if I had tons of time in the operation, I do not. There's something that makes me feel weird talking about basic handling. My rule is that I don't speak up unless I feel like I need a parachute. However, those rules were fine on the other side of the house with old men, lifers and near-lifers. This is like traveling back in time.

Addressing a subject like this takes some tact because it is easily taken the wrong way... that and I get so bothered by it I'm afraid if I say anything it's going to come out something like "Are you kidding me? What flying bleeping circus did you learn to fly at? They aren't uncomfortable enough back there without you screwing around with the power and spoilers?"

What is worse is I know I used to do it on the 1900 and even some on the Saab in the beginning, so getting critical now is just bad karma.

I don't know. I'll try some suggestions above.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I find, above all things, griping about a pilots technique, creates a crappy crew environment. It would be one thing if I had the callouts and flows perfect, I do not, or if I had tons of time in the operation, I do not. There's something that makes me feel weird talking about basic handling. My rule is that I don't speak up unless I feel like I need a parachute. However, those rules were fine on the other side of the house with old men, lifers and near-lifers. This is like traveling back in time.

Addressing a subject like this takes some tact because it is easily taken the wrong way... that and I get so bothered by it I'm afraid if I say anything it's going to come out something like "Are you kidding me? What flying bleeping circus did you learn to fly at? They aren't uncomfortable enough back there without you screwing around with the power and spoilers?"

What is worse is I know I used to do it on the 1900 and even some on the Saab in the beginning, so getting critical now is just bad karma.

I don't know. I'll try some suggestions above.

I've found pretty good results with blanket statements about other pilots (true or not).

ie. "You seem like a cool guy, I'm glad. I've been flying with some real idiots lately. Seriously, since I've come up here I feel like I'm amongst a bunch of top gun wannabees the way they fly the airplane."

Obviously works best when you haven't yet flown. But if that's a pet peeve of yours, might not be a bad idea to bring it up.

I flew with a captain that was doing something I'd rather not say on the internet while taxiing. Next time I flew with them I brought up a story about another captain I flew with that was doing the same thing and how I had to intervene to keep us anywhere close to centerline. Didn't happen once on the second trip.

 

[Gonzo]

Joe, It is not about being perfect on your flows or callouts, it is about trying to be a professional pilot. Think of it as smooth = professional. At this point in their careers they are either hacks or unprofessional. I always fly like my mom is the FA on her feet in the back, and this is the first time my passengers have ever been on a plane.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Joe, It is not about being perfect on your flows or callouts, it is about trying to be a professional pilot. Think of it as smooth = professional. At this point in their careers they are either hacks or unprofessional. I always fly like my mom is the FA on her feet in the back, and this is the first time my passengers have ever been on a plane.

I try to make it so that if someone has their eyes closed in the back they can't tell we're moving. I find the best way to do this is to close my eyes too.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

- Gann

And stolen for FB quote night.

 

[ppragman]

I find, above all things, griping about a pilots technique, creates a crappy crew environment. It would be one thing if I had the callouts and flows perfect, I do not, or if I had tons of time in the operation, I do not. There's something that makes me feel weird talking about basic handling. My rule is that I don't speak up unless I feel like I need a parachute. However, those rules were fine on the other side of the house with old men, lifers and near-lifers. This is like traveling back in time.

Addressing a subject like this takes some tact because it is easily taken the wrong way... that and I get so bothered by it I'm afraid if I say anything it's going to come out something like "Are you kidding me? What flying bleeping circus did you learn to fly at? They aren't uncomfortable enough back there without you screwing around with the power and spoilers?"

What is worse is I know I used to do it on the 1900 and even some on the Saab in the beginning, so getting critical now is just bad karma.

I don't know. I'll try some suggestions above.

You've got thousands of hours of flight time in a crew environment - you notice a whole pilot group that does things with Poor Technique. Let them know, don't get pissy about it, I mean, as long as their not breaking the airplane they're not doing anything "wrong" per se, but let them know. Everyone you fly with has something to teach you, that also means you have something to teach them. If your callouts and flows aren't perfect - well, then fix that.

Or you could just accept it, and smile inside knowing that you'll do things better when you're in that seat.