Guess they didn't learn the first time.. Delta's new KSEA-PAJN run.

[Roger Roger]

No where.

But once again, why would I want to land at a place without an approach?

Um.....the same reason any of us want to land anywhere. Because that's where the passengers paid to get, and the bossman wants you to get them there if its legal and safe, and you know you and your equipment can handle it.

Just the fact that you even asked that question illustrates a key difference between flying up here and down there. Down there, almost no one operates scheduled service to VFR only airports because there's no demand for it. Up here, there are non-towered, VFR only airports that blow away the passenger numbers for places like, say Texarkana. Because that's the only way to get around.

 

[Roger Roger]

I love you guys and I love what you do. I'm just saying... don't take yourselves too seriously. By and large, flying is flying. A good pilot can make it work anywhere. I'm not saying you don't have mad skills and that Alaska isn't different... it is...just not in aerodynamic ways. If somebody from the L48 is a good stick with good judgement and has mountain time and Wx time, I'd reckon they'd do just fine. Thoughts?

I think this is a trick question because IIRC you've been here and done that. And of course they would.

 

[mikecweb]

I think we're talking past each other here, but @mikecweb's point was that the reason no outside airlines operate here is the economics. Well, guess what, the operations that DO run up here experience those same economic pressures. In many cases, this leads to smaller, less well equipped aircraft being used on routes which down south would be served by better equipped multi crew aircraft. This, in turn, has a HEYYYOOOOGE effect on the way operations run up here.

I would agree with you except 5 pages ago the Alaska contingent was proclaiming that Delta didn't have the equipment to operate up there. So which is it?

@Crop Duster said it best, Flying is flying.

 

[z987k]

I love you guys and I love what you do. I'm just saying... don't take yourselves too seriously. By and large, flying is flying. A good pilot can make it work anywhere. I'm not saying you don't have mad skills and that Alaska isn't different... it is...just not in aerodynamic ways. If somebody from the L48 is a good stick with good judgement and has mountain time and Wx time, I'd reckon they'd do just fine. Thoughts?

Absolutely. I am a lower 48 pilot. I spend the first 3000 hours there.
I don't claim to have mad skills though. All I'm arguing in this thread with Seggy, is operationally, it is different.

I'll actually argue that we have a very large population of very poor instrument pilots up here. It can be downright dumbfounding. Also, as I mentioned earlier, I can't even begin to fathom some of the decision making. Maybe that's everywhere, but I didn't see it when I flew freight down south. And that operator wasn't exactly known for sunshine and rainbows.

 

[Roger Roger]

I would agree with you except 5 pages ago the Alaska contingent was proclaiming that Delta didn't have the equipment to operate up there. So which is it?

@Crop Duster said it best, Flying is flying.

I think I misspoke in the beginning, I said something to the effect that without ALASKA's RNP approaches the service would be useless.
What I should have said is without good special approaches delta's service will be unacceptably unreliable.
Currently Alaska has the only approved, really good approaches in here,
Others who know more about the Delta Borg have strongly hinted that Delta is interested or maybe in the process of developing their own stuff. If so, kudos to them.
I remain curious where/how they will get gate space.

What I really hope against is that both airlines don't get into a fare war and subsidize money losing routes here with the rest of their networks, because nobody wins in that scenario. Well, I guess I would as a ticket buyer so on second thought go for it.

Also I hope I don't have to listen to some 64 year old walrus mustachioed mega guppy driver clog the CTAF with 10 minute long position reports.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Um.....the same reason any of us want to land anywhere. Because that's where the passengers paid to get, and the bossman wants you to get them there if its legal and safe, and you know you and your equipment can handle it.

Speaking only for myself, I want to (and sometimes do) land all kinds of places the bossman doesn't want me to. Sadly, it's probably one of my many peculiar traits that will make my journey to 121 a long one. .

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

\

Um.....the same reason any of us want to land anywhere. Because that's where the passengers paid to get, and the bossman wants you to get them there if its legal and safe, and you know you and your equipment can handle it.

Just the fact that you even asked that question illustrates a key difference between flying up here and down there. Down there, almost no one operates scheduled service to VFR only airports because there's no demand for it. Up here, there are non-towered, VFR only airports that blow away the passenger numbers for places like, say Texarkana. Because that's the only way to get around.

Isn't this thread about DL operating into JNU?

"JNU isn't that big of a deal"

"Well, this is Alaska.. it's just DIFFERENT"

"JNU is no different than other challenging airports around the world"

"Well, what about airports in Alaska that have no approach? I bet you don't do those!"

 

[Deleted member 27505]

No where.

But once again, why would I want to land at a place without an approach?

Aw, c'mon, meow. 'Cause it's challenging and fun. And, sometimes it is a lot more important than delivering Pepsi. Give the younguns some encouragement. If it's all about sloughing down the GS every time, where's the thrill?

 

[Capt. Chaos]

It has everything to do with this thread and the attitude permeated from the pilots on here from Alaska. Sorry, it isn't that different flying than others in the 48 see! You wondering if the Delta guys have started to shoot the LDA in JNU is a perfect example. I am sure the Delta guys will have NO problem doing it. I looked at the approach and it isn't that much different than the LDA into another airport.

You REALLY think Delta is going to half ass it

Airlines, such as Delta, can TDY ground staff from other stations for the summer to run the station while Delta is serving it seasonally. Happens ALL the time. Did you think of the possibility Delta will do that?

I have never flown an RJ.

Delta can develop their own.



Because they are probably working on it in their 737 simulators before they do proving runs. They don't NEED to be in JNU to figure this out.

I think it was the LDA-X. Doesn't matter. An approach is an approach is an approach. All has to do with proper training to execute that approach. I know Delta will properly train their crews to do what they need to do to safely conduct operations into JNU.

Doesn't matter? An approach is an approach? Very Alaska bush attitude there.. be careful. And be sure the FAA thinks the LDA-Z is different, so much so that is requires individual crewman training on it. But again what do I know.. I've only had to do it.

Yes Delta can develop their own RNP approaches, but having been around for Alaska's development, there was a jet parked in Juneau for months just dedicated to proving runs. Also FAA Flight Check does not do any of the RNP checks, Alaska was back up just a few weeks ago doing proving runs and flight checks for some minor changes and mag var updates. Non of this stuff can be done in the sim for operational approval. Alaska pilots do their initial checkouts in the sim, but then they still must be checked out doing the actual approach, and then are only high mins qualified. There is a process to get low mins qualified and to keep that qualification.

Yes Delta can send people up to Juneau.. but where are they going to set up shop? You have obviously never stepped foot in the Juneau Airport but still question people that know every square foot of it and know there is no space for lease for a 135 let alone a 121. And again the airport management was quoted in the Juneau paper that this was a complete surprise to them.

As for Delta doing it have assed... study some history on their last attempt at trying to break into the Juneau market. That is one way in the Alaska is actually unique.. people are not always drawn to the cheap ticket. Dependability comes first, and one night stuck in a hotel eats that $100 savings right up. People have a long memory of Delta's last attempt in Juneau, and their dependability issues, even if Delta doesn't. And that is a big question among locals.. what is different this time? And if nothing, it will be another summer experiment and then adios again.

And the Alaska attitude. Let me ask what and where you fly and I'll tell you why your all wrong with out ever going there or doing it.

 

[genot]

I'll admit I've read only about 80% of these, I'm a controller not a commercial pilot AND I've never lived in Alaska.

I work with guys who are from Alaska, they can hunt deer with pocket knives, real mans's men.

Having said that, I don't know what a proprietary RNP (or a special LDA approach is, I have both) nor do I know why any airline should be proud of having one. If a pilot isn't so equipped that's one thing, but to act like only one airline can fly said approach is bordering on lunacy. I unable the RNP 95% of the time because, you know, traffic. Not because it isn't sponsored as such by the livery on the side of the requesting aircraft. An airline in the US creating an RNP is like a 6 year old with an IPAD. You could have gotten more with a visual and its extremely restricting in IMC. If vectors to final come in to play its a 20 mile final more or less.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Doesn't matter? An approach is an approach? Very Alaska bush attitude there.. be careful. And be sure the FAA thinks the LDA-Z is different, so much so that is requires individual crewman training on it. But again what do I know.. I've only had to do it.

Yes Delta can develop their own RNP approaches, but having been around for Alaska's development, there was a jet parked in Juneau for months just dedicated to proving runs. Also FAA Flight Check does not do any of the RNP checks, Alaska was back up just a few weeks ago doing proving runs and flight checks for some minor changes and mag var updates. Non of this stuff can be done in the sim for operational approval. Alaska pilots do their initial checkouts in the sim, but then they still must be checked out doing the actual approach, and then are only high mins qualified. There is a process to get low mins qualified and to keep that qualification.

Yes Delta can send people up to Juneau.. but where are they going to set up shop? You have obviously never stepped foot in the Juneau Airport but still question people that know every square foot of it and know there is no space for lease for a 135 let alone a 121. And again the airport management was quoted in the Juneau paper that this was a complete surprise to them.

As for Delta doing it have assed... study some history on their last attempt at trying to break into the Juneau market. That is one way in the Alaska is actually unique.. people are not always drawn to the cheap ticket. Dependability comes first, and one night stuck in a hotel eats that $100 savings right up. People have a long memory of Delta's last attempt in Juneau, and their dependability issues, even if Delta doesn't. And that is a big question among locals.. what is different this time? And if nothing, it will be another summer experiment and then adios again.

And the Alaska attitude. Let me ask what and where you fly and I'll tell you why your all wrong with out ever going there or doing it.

You fail to realize that DL already has a very good special airport qualification program that deals with places far more critical than JNU around the world. I used to be a SAQ ride-along instructor on our 767 program, so I'm very familiar with it. I was on the 737 for a year and did UIO frequently as well as TGU where we had custom developed RNAV approaches.

AS has a far smaller footprint than DL, so it's understandable that ya'll make a big deal about JNU. It's yet another rocky place with crazy weather, and thank gosh in this one the controllers speak english unlike most of the other ones we go to. None of it is anything we don't already do.

 

[PositionAndHold]

I was talking about pilot salaries. There isn't enough profit to be had by airlines/charter to go up there. More people wanna see Mickey than a moose.

While I don't have a dog in this fight and won't argue more people go to see Mickey. The tourism numbers in alaska are pretty crazy when compared to population. In 2013 the population of the ENTIRE state was about 731,449. In from May 1st 2012 to April 30th 2013 about 1,849,700 tourists visited Alaska. Every year for the last ten years tourists more than DOUBLE the population. I would argue a lot of people every year go to visit the moose.

http://commerce.alaska.gov/dnn/ded/DEV/TourismDevelopment/TourismResearch.aspx

http://www.worldpopulationstatistics.com/alaska-population-2013/

I have operated our Lear for a summer in south east Alaska and several summers/winters in Mexico, and Central America. In fact I airline back down to Panama tomorrow to bring the boss back. The whether and approach structure or lack of was by far more difficult to contend with in Alaska. There's a reason we keep going to Mex/cenamer, the wx sucked so bad in Alaska the boss only wanted to keep his boat up there for one summer. The other three summers/winters I've been around the boat has been south of Loreto, B.C.S. Wait a minute, every thing I just said was anecdotel. It only represents my experiences. At least I've had actual experience in both operating environments being discussed. Ok, now some one tell me that isn't what I experienced, that I must be mistaken. Wait, let me pm some one so I can guess what their response will be.

 

[z987k]

I'll admit I've read only about 80% of these, I'm a controller not a commercial pilot AND I've never lived in Alaska.

I work with guys who are from Alaska, they can hunt deer with pocket knives, real mans's men.

Having said that, I don't know what a proprietary RNP (or a special LDA approach is, I have both) nor do I know why any airline should be proud of having one. If a pilot isn't so equipped that's one thing, but to act like only one airline can fly said approach is bordering on lunacy. I unable the RNP 95% of the time because, you know, traffic. Not because it isn't sponsored as such by the livery on the side of the requesting aircraft. An airline in the US creating an RNP is like a 6 year old with an IPAD. You could have gotten more with a visual and its extremely restricting in IMC. If vectors to final come in to play its a 20 mile final more or less.

There's not a ton of IFR traffic for JNU, that's not really an issue. The special approaches get you lower with less visibility than the published approaches. That's really it. You are right though. A Special VFR clearance is more useful, but there's not many 121 operators approved for those and I'm pretty sure neither AS or DL are. There are no vectors, as there is no radar.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I'll admit I've read only about 80% of these, I'm a controller not a commercial pilot AND I've never lived in Alaska.

I work with guys who are from Alaska, they can hunt deer with pocket knives, real mans's men.

Having said that, I don't know what a proprietary RNP (or a special LDA approach is, I have both) nor do I know why any airline should be proud of having one. If a pilot isn't so equipped that's one thing, but to act like only one airline can fly said approach is bordering on lunacy. I unable the RNP 95% of the time because, you know, traffic. Not because it isn't sponsored as such by the livery on the side of the requesting aircraft. An airline in the US creating an RNP is like a 6 year old with an IPAD. You could have gotten more with a visual and its extremely restricting in IMC. If vectors to final come in to play its a 20 mile final more or less.

Completely off subject... are you seeing a lot of RNP inhibits due to traffic? This was my big doubt about the efficacy of the RNP program. When SWA came in swinging about gliding to the airport, my thought was, "Well, yeah, that sounds great, but what if some SKW bro is shooting the ILS just then? What happens in that case? Do you spin SKW?"

 

[Capt. Chaos]

You fail to realize that DL already has a very good special airport qualification program that deals with places far more critical than JNU around the world. I used to be a SAQ ride-along instructor on our 767 program, so I'm very familiar with it. I was on the 737 for a year and did UIO frequently as well as TGU where we had custom developed RNAV approaches.

AS has a far smaller footprint than DL, so it's understandable that ya'll make a big deal about JNU. It's yet another rocky place with crazy weather, and thank gosh in this one the controllers speak english unlike most of the other ones we go to. None of it is anything we don't already do.

I do realize that the resources do exist.. but they were not used during the last foray in to the market (and that is the legacy people remember), so if Delta has been working on something then the PR folks need to get the word out that they can compete dependability wise.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I do realize that the resources do exist.. but they were not used during the last foray in to the market (and that is the legacy people remember), so if Delta has been working on something then the PR folks need to get the word out that they can compete dependability wise.

When was the last foray into the market? The last I remember reading about was 727 service which would make it more than a decade ago at the least... more than likely 15-20 years.

 

[Cptnchia]

Let's see, I've flown in Central and South America, Asia, and Africa where believe me, there is some off the wall wierd crap. I've shot approaches to mins in Iceland and Northern Europe. Tell me again why you think we aren't qualified to fly into JNU. Keep in mind, we're not talking bush flying here. That is a whole different kind of flying. We're not talking about that kind of flying at all.

 

[T/O w/FSII]

No where.

But once again, why would I want to land at a place without an approach?

I just want to quote this post.

Are you sure your a pilot?

My dad told me something very wise a long time ago that has worked well for me:

"Son, you haven't been there and you haven't done it, so just shut up and listen"

 

[ShortField]

When was the last foray into the market? The last I remember reading about was 727 service which would make it more than a decade ago at the least... more than likely 15-20 years.

1996

 

[Cptnchia]

"Son, you haven't been there and you haven't done it, so just shut up and listen"

I like that quote! Let's put it this way. If you haven't been through Delta SAQ training, you don't know what we're capable of. But by all means, please continue to underestimate us. I would tend to think that an airline that figured out how to cross two oceans, and operate in just about every environment in the world can figure out Alaska.