Guess they didn't learn the first time.. Delta's new KSEA-PAJN run.

[PositionAndHold]

Let's see, I've flown in Central and South America, Asia, and Africa where believe me, there is some off the wall wierd crap. I've shot approaches to mins in Iceland and Northern Europe. Tell me again why you think we aren't qualified to fly into JNU. Keep in mind, we're not talking bush flying here. That is a whole different kind of flying. We're not talking about that kind of flying at all.

My take. It's not different than those places. I think most people were saying it's not that it's much different then even the lower 48, you just end up in worse conditions more often. Delta announced all this and it came as a surprise to even the airport manager. As no one from delta has been seen up there and there isn't even space according to others. I don't think people we're saying delta couldn't do it, I think they were trying to say you can't just show up and have your own RNP appch without out proper engineering, approval, and training. Things that take a fair amount of time and more than just a few sim runs. While @Seggy said "an approach is an approach", if that were the case JNU won't be a special quals airport. We all know that it will be. As usual I think we got a off track when seggy poked his head in and starts a measuring contest about what it's like in Alaska even though he's never flown .1 in the airspace. It seems to happen quite a bit lately. I think people would take his opinion a little more seriously if he had actual experiences (besides being a "tax payer" that has read a few OpEd pieces) in the subjects he talks about, like telling people what the military is like etc. Just what I got out of it any way.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

My take. It's not different than those places. I think most people were saying it's not that it's much different then even the lower 48, you just end up in worse conditions more often. Delta announced all this and it came as a surprise to even the airport manager. As no one from delta has been seen up there and there isn't even space according to others. I don't think people we're saying delta couldn't do it, I think they were trying to say you can't just show up and have your own RNP appch without out proper engineering, approval, and training. Things that take a fair amount of time and more than just a few sim runs. While @Seggy said "an approach is an approach", if that were the case JNU won't be a special quals airport. We all know that it will be. As usual I think we got a off track when seggy poked his head in and starts a measuring contest about what it's like in Alaska even though he's never flown .1 in the airspace. It seems to happen quite a bit lately. I think people would take his opinion a little more seriously if he had actual experiences (besides being a "tax payer" that has read a few OpEd pieces) in the subjects he talks about, like telling people what the military is like etc. Just what I got out of it any way.

An approach IS an approach. It is a method to get you safely to a minimum altitude to transition to visual and land (excluding CAT III autoland). The approach is generally designed to keep the aircraft stabilized. If an approach requires special training, it is given (after being approved via Ops Spec).

That's it. If your argument is that being a cowboy makes you better qualified than a DAL pilot (or even an AS pilot), you are arguing with false premise.

The debate from the 121 world doesn't center around whether we will go below mins "because the forecast is always wrong".... It's all about ops spec and training.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

My take. It's not different than those places. I think most people were saying it's not that it's much different then even the lower 48, you just end up in worse conditions more often. Delta announced all this and it came as a surprise to even the airport manager. As no one from delta has been seen up there and there isn't even space according to others. I don't think people we're saying delta couldn't do it, I think they were trying to say you can't just show up and have your own RNP appch without out proper engineering, approval, and training. Things that take a fair amount of time and more than just a few sim runs. While Seggy said "an approach is an approach", if that were the case JNU won't be a special quals airport.

I would argue that for most intents and purposes, an approach is just and approach. Now the stuff around the approach comprising the consequences if you foul up the approach... yeah, those differ considerably.

 

[PositionAndHold]

An approach IS an approach. It is a method to get you safely to a minimum altitude to transition to visual and land (excluding CAT III autoland). The approach is generally designed to keep the aircraft stabilized. If an approach requires special training, it is given (after being approved via Ops Spec).

That's it. If your argument is that being a cowboy makes you better qualified than a DAL pilot (or even an AS pilot), you are arguing with false premise.

The debate from the 121 world doesn't center around whether we will go below mins "because the forecast is always wrong".... It's all about ops spec and training.

I fully realize what an approach is designed to do. While they all are designed for the same outcome they're hardly all the same. I'm not sure we're you got being a cowboy from and I'm not saying flying bush AK is the same as 121 RNP's.

Just to be clear, you're saying an approach IS an approach, unless it's not and requires special training? So in this example an RNP to JUN isn't the same as a cat I ILS to ICT correct? So an approach isn't an approach. Some require special training and authorization. Which is what I thought I was pointing out??

 

[PositionAndHold]

I would argue that for most intents and purposes, an approach is just and approach. Now the stuff around the approach comprising the consequences if you foul up the approach... yeah, those differ considerably.

Ok, now we're trying to define where an appch starts? I'm just talking about every time you need to fly what's printed on an "approach" plate down to visual conditions. Once you break out, yes every approach is the same. I guess if that's what you're talking about we could call it a "get lower through the clouds so I can shoot an approach" plate .

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Well I think we have established that Alaska based pilots play by different rules. Good luck.

 

[PositionAndHold]

Well I think we have established that Alaska based pilots play by different rules. Good luck.

That's the thing. I'm not an Alaskan based pilot. I'm based in SoCal. I also don't think they play by "different rules", just that it is a consistently different environment compared to the other flying I've done. I've only flown up there about a lil over a 15-20 times during a summer. So admittedly my sample size is pretty small. I wish Delta luck. It just happens to echo what the guys that are based up there are saying. I've got no dog in this fight. I was simply stating what I got out of this thread, and that Delta's going to have to do a little more than just show up if they want to get into JNU reliably. That's all. Oh, and that since there are approaches that have special quals for aircrew and aircraft, an approach isn't an approach. I thought that's all I was saying any way. Maybe I'm the one that needs meds.

 

[USMCmech]

My dad told me something very wise a long time ago that has worked well for me:

"Son, you haven't been there and you haven't done it, so just shut up and listen"

Seggy's dad never told him that apparently.

 

[Seggy]

Doesn't matter? An approach is an approach? Very Alaska bush attitude there.. be careful.

Ever hear of the saying, 'this airplane, that runway' when conditions are approriate?

And be sure the FAA thinks the LDA-Z is different, so much so that is requires individual crewman training on it. But again what do I know.. I've only had to do it.

Once again, Delta ALREADY has that requirement for dozens of other places they go to.

Yes Delta can develop their own RNP approaches, but having been around for Alaska's development, there was a jet parked in Juneau for months just dedicated to proving runs. Also FAA Flight Check does not do any of the RNP checks, Alaska was back up just a few weeks ago doing proving runs and flight checks for some minor changes and mag var updates. Non of this stuff can be done in the sim for operational approval. Alaska pilots do their initial checkouts in the sim, but then they still must be checked out doing the actual approach, and then are only high mins qualified. There is a process to get low mins qualified and to keep that qualification.

Every airline has different qualifications procedures based upon what their FAA oversight team wants. Just because Alaska has a plane up there, that doesn't mean Delta will need to park a plane there for weeks on end.

Yes Delta can send people up to Juneau.. but where are they going to set up shop? You have obviously never stepped foot in the Juneau Airport but still question people that know every square foot of it and know there is no space for lease for a 135 let alone a 121. And again the airport management was quoted in the Juneau paper that this was a complete surprise to them.

There are challenges around the world Delta and other larger airlines face in obtaining gate space, lease space, etc. I am sure they will have no problem at Juneau, with or without Alaska Airlines help.

As for Delta doing it have assed... study some history on their last attempt at trying to break into the Juneau market. That is one way in the Alaska is actually unique.. people are not always drawn to the cheap ticket. Dependability comes first, and one night stuck in a hotel eats that $100 savings right up. People have a long memory of Delta's last attempt in Juneau, and their dependability issues, even if Delta doesn't. And that is a big question among locals.. what is different this time? And if nothing, it will be another summer experiment and then adios again.

Big difference between 1996 and today.

And the Alaska attitude. Let me ask what and where you fly and I'll tell you why your all wrong with out ever going there or doing it.

I am just calling it like I see it.

 

[Seggy]

I just want to quote this post.

Are you sure your a pilot?

Yes. I see NO reason on why someone would want to fly into an airport that they can't go around from.

My dad told me something very wise a long time ago that has worked well for me:

"Son, you haven't been there and you haven't done it, so just shut up and listen"

So if I have never been into an airport, but the Captain has, am I supposed to sit their like a log and not say a word, OR am I supposed to properly do my job, give feedback, and use crew resource management to get the job done safely?

 

[Seggy]

Seggy's dad never told him that apparently.

See my example above. Even though I may never have been into an airport, it is my job to speak up if I say something.

I am not going to sit here, have the Alaska folks put Delta on their knee, and 'explain' how things are done.

 

[MikeD]

Yes. I see NO reason on why someone would want to fly into an airport that they can't go around from.

Mark, sometimes it's just your job. Whether assigned or volunteered, it's simply your job to take whatever needs to go in, or take out whatever needs to come out. Simple as that. See below.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1313/02235ND14.PDF

 

[Seggy]

Mark, sometimes it's just your job. Whether assigned or volunteered, it's simply your job to take whatever needs to go in, or take out whatever needs to come out. Simple as that. See below.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1313/02235ND14.PDF

Mike, I get that if you are military.

I don't get that if you are a civilian flying the bush in Alaska. I love my job, but don't want to loose my life over it because someone decided they want to live off the grid in Alaska.

 

[MikeD]

Mike, I get that if you are military.

I don't get that if you are a civilian flying the bush in Alaska. I love my job, but don't want to loose my life over it because someone decided they want to live off the grid in Alaska.

I understand your perspective. In this particular case, these LRRS are Long Range Radar Sites, served by both military as well as civil contract cargo aircraft, and have no other means of resupply. They were placed where they were for strategic reasons, are in the middle of nowhere generally, and I guess the best mitigation of risk has been done with regards to the challenging nature of the airstrip built next to these places to allow resupply. Sure, it's not optimal, and guys wishing to do this on a civil contract basis would obviously need to understand risk involved and train for it. But it still can be done safely....as safe as possible....when good judgement is used.

For some people, its too much risk that either they don't want to take or they don't feel is worth it. For others, its a challenge they want to tackle and something they feel is worth it. Neither party is wrong; it's merely what works for them is what they should do.

Interesting vid here of a cargo arrival.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Seems like there are two conversations going on here. One is about Delta's new ksea-pajn run. The other seems to be about who's got the biggest uh cockpit.

It's me. There. Problem solved.

I was keeping my identity a secret, much as I'm not telling anyone when I win the powerball on Friday, but all this silliness counts as "exigent circumstance", I think.

You may continue.

 

[Cptnchia]

As far as gate space in JNU, and the lack thereof, how about this. You say there is no gate space to be had unless AS plays ball. Who's gates does AS use in LAX after the forced move to 5/6? Or in ATL? Not saying that DL management would play dirty pool *insert appropriate harrumphing noise* but what would happen if all of a sudden there was a "broke" airplane at the gate AS was supposed to use every time? "Oh sorry, we'll move it ASAP" thirty minutes later. Only takes a few times to affect AS's on time rating.

 

[Roger Roger]

\


Isn't this thread about DL operating into JNU?

"JNU isn't that big of a deal"

"Well, this is Alaska.. it's just DIFFERENT"

"JNU is no different than other challenging airports around the world"

"Well, what about airports in Alaska that have no approach? I bet you don't do those!"

I think if you actually read the thread it was @Seggy who got off into talking about how Alaska was operationally no different than anywhere else in the country, which those of us who have actually done both find to be a laughable statement. So you can blame him for the thread derail because, as usual, he was spouting off about something he hasn't done and knows nothing about.

You guys have pretty well addressed the RNP issue, it sounds like Delta's going to make their own and good for them. I'm still curious where gate space is going to come from but apparently by questioning that we are questioning the manhood of the guys that fly for the Mighty Borg, at least judging by the very sensitive reactions in this thread. I assure you it's nothing personal, I'm just a little curious to what kind of back room deals went on to arrange all this especially since the two airlines are not exactly on super friendly terms right now.

 

[Seggy]

I think if you actually read the thread it was @Seggy who got off into talking about how Alaska was operationally no different than anywhere else in the country, which those of us who have actually done both find to be a laughable statement.

It really is no different than anywhere else in the country. I have very clearly stated on why it is no different, but the Alaska folks don't even want to hear it.

So you can blame him for the thread derail because, as usual, he was spouting off about something he hasn't done and knows nothing about.

Once again, just because I haven't flown into an airport, am I suppose to sit there like a log or am I to use proper crew resource management? Same concept here.

You guys have pretty well addressed the RNP issue, it sounds like Delta's going to make their own and good for them.

For those to think Delta was going to have an issue with the RNP is a great example of the group think Alaska flying I see on here.

 

[Seggy]

@Seggy how often did you guys go VFR in legal minimums (500/2 or 1000/1 for 135) because you were going somewhere that either had no approaches, or where the approaches didn't get you low enough to be useful?

@dasleben, could you guys at Cape Air do this?

 

[Roger Roger]

It really is no different than anywhere else in the country. I have very clearly stated on why it is no different, but the Alaska folks don't even want to hear it.




Once again, just because I haven't flown into an airport, am I suppose to sit there like a log or am I to use proper crew resource management? Same concept here.



For those to think Delta was going to have an issue with the RNP is a great example of the group think Alaska flying I see on here.

So wait a minute. Alaska is operationally no different than anywhere else. So everywhere else you have scheduled passenger service running piston singles in FAA legal VFR minimums? Everywhere else there are scheduled airlines that run nothing but floatplanes? Everywhere else has 80 years of expectations that guys will do crazy things to make it in that you have to push back against every single day to make sure that you're going to stay alive and certificated?

 

[Roger Roger]

For those to think Delta was going to have an issue with the RNP is a great example of the group think Alaska flying I see on here.

Where did ANYONE say that Delta guys couldn't hack flying an RNP approach into Alaska, because Alaska? Nowhere. What we actually said was that without good approaches the service will be useless. Did you ever think that maybe some of us outside the Big Airline World aren't well acquainted with who does and who doesn't do a lot of RNP stuff? Several Delta guys came in and (unneccearrily condescendingly) informed us that Delta is in fact one of the carriers that's big into RNP approach development and will in fact probably do that in Juneau. Instead you read what you wanted to read and tried to take the thread off on a tangent by calling people you've never met dangerous, egotistical hacks.

You're welcome to ride along any day with any of us up here so we can laugh as you struggle to pretend to be truthful when you tell us that it's exactly like what you did back at Colgan.