Guess they didn't learn the first time.. Delta's new KSEA-PAJN run.

[z987k]

You are describing a lot of smaller airports in the United States as well as EVERY airport south of the border in Central and South America. Only difference here is that in Central and South America, you are dealing with controllers where English is (99% of the time) their second language. So you aren't painting a picture by these points on how it is 'different' in Alaska. Any others you want to bring up?

I'm pretty sure you're not driving a PA31 or a Caravan/206 around down there.
How many airports do you land on with flare pots for lights at night, with no vertical guidance and just a black hole around it? How many airports have a 2-3% slope? How many actually say go around improbable? Or Hazardous right on the chart? If you land at an airport and can't get the engines going again, are you now in a dangerous survival situation?
The only point I'm making here, is it is different.

 

[Seggy]

I'm pretty sure you're not driving a PA31 or a Caravan/206 around down there.

You are right. There are less places to put a jet down south of the border than a Caravan in Alaska.

How many airports do you land on with flare pots for lights at night, with no vertical guidance and just a black hole around it? How many airports have a 2-3% slope?

You are describing Guatamala City, Panama City, Bogata, Guadalajara, and about another dozen airports down south. No flare pots though, but not adequate lighting.

How many actually say go around improbable?

None.

Or Hazardous right on the chart?

I don't need it to say hazardous on the chart to know it is hazardous.

If you land at an airport and can't get the engines going again, are you now in a dangerous survival situation?

We have a lot of layovers that can turn bad quickly like that.

The only point I'm making here, is it is different.

I fail to see how it is different.

 

[Capt. Chaos]

This is probably going to piss some people off, but I don't care. I call it as I see it.

In the nearly 10 years I have been on here, I have noticed that the pilots that fly in Alaska have a chip on their shoulder, seem to think that flying in Alaska is the 'be all end all' in aviation, and that no one else has a clue on what they are doing. PERFECT example is that we have Alaska folks on here seriously wondering if Delta can figure out how to do a RNP approach into JNU (nicely put @crazyjaydawg and @Cptnchia) and if they can aquire gate space without Alaska Airlines help. It really is extremely comical to be reading some of these posts as the pilots flying in Alaska seem to be wanting to put Delta Airlines on their knee, and explain, to Delta, how things work. The accident rate in Alaska sucks and I truly think that this attitude displayed by the pilots that fly in Alaska has a lot to do with it. The conditions aren't easy, but it isn't exactly easy flying in other conditions others face across in the United States. It is just done at a lower accident rate than we see in Alaska.

First off what does the GA/135 accident rate have to do with anything in this discussion? I gather that's your default response to anything Alaska related. Secondly I have no unrequited love for all things Alaska Airlines, I am well aware of the price gouge I pay for the only game in town. I totally am for another carrier in the Southeast market, but it's frustrating to see another half attempt just to be a one up in the pissing match between the two carriers. This is a very small place and there has not been a whisper of any ground work started for Delta to come in and do the job right, also take it as a sign the they are not here for the long haul. As for myself.. I was a committee member on the Juneau Airspace agreement, I was involved in the 2 years of meeting with the working group on TA/RA conflicts that was able to keep the the FAA from making Juneau SFAR airspace. Grab a Juneau sectional.. See the Juneau area inset? Was on the team that got that developed and pushed through the charting office. So what is comical is that you discount people who are on the ground and actually work at the Juneau airport and have experience in Southeast, got it. So preach all you want from the RJ pulpit...

There has been no Delta bashing, wish them the best of luck, but don't be a seasonal fling.. Oh and how about Ketchikan service?

 

[MikeD]

Not to hijack this thread, but the attitude problem I see is the default to VFR in all situations. SHTF? Go down and towards terrain. It's like everyone started in helicopters. Also the severe lack of IFR proficiency. It's changing, but we need the old timers to retire.

Don't be knocking on helicopters now. There's reasons we're not optimized for many IMC ops, even if equipped and certificated. Even with pilots who are instrument rated or ATP-Rotorcraft.

 

[ppragman]

Anyway, I fail to see how it is 'different' flying in Alaska than the lower 48 from your points. As I said on here, other pilots have dealt with these circumstances at airports outside of Alaska.

The difference is that you'll often experience many of these on the same flight. It's not dramatically different - it's not like learning to fly all over again - but it is different in a way that's not really fully explainable until you've come up and done some. It's not rocket science - but having flown freight in "America" and flown SPIFR and VFR 135 up here - I can say that in my experience - this is hands down more difficult. Maybe flying 121 is a lot harder than what we do here - and that's cool if it is, I don't have any experience flying 121, but in my limited experience - this is some of the hardest stuff I've had to do. Don't get me wrong - that's not always appealing, I prefer things to be "easy," there are many days when I wonder why the hell I do this for a living.

Often times, it is "more difficult" because we make it that way - that's a cultural thing that we should be trying to limit - and the younger generation of Alaskan aviators is in general actively working towards a safer, easier, type of flying. That said, I don't really think you're qualified to talk about Alaskan operations in the same way I'm not qualified to talk about 121 operations.

 

[z987k]

You are right. There are less places to put a jet down south of the border than a Caravan in Alaska.



You are describing Guatamala City, Panama City, Bogata, Guadalajara, and about another dozen airports down south. No flare pots though, but not adequate lighting.



None.



I don't need it to say hazardous on the chart to know it is hazardous.



We have a lot of layovers that can turn bad quickly like that.



I fail to see how it is different.

I'd really like to hear how your layovers can turn into survival situations. You step out of the airplane 500 miles from the nearest road into -40F often?
How about the gravel runways built into a mountain with 10% slopes? I really don't think you're doing that in an RJ.
I am not saying Alaska flying is the be all end all. It is not. But it certainly isn't the same.

 

[z987k]

Don't be knocking on helicopters now. There's reasons we're not optimized for many IMC ops, even if equipped and certificated. Even with pilots who are instrument rated or ATP-Rotorcraft.

At least you can hover though. I've yet to see a 208 or a BE20 do that on demand.
But seriously here's the thought process. Oh, crap! IIMC! Turn towards the mountain and DIVE!
When they can safely climb above all terrain in the whole state.

 

[Seggy]

The difference is that you'll often experience many of these on the same flight.

I have experienced many of those conditions you talked about on the same flight flying from KBOS to KRKD.

It's not dramatically different - it's not like learning to fly all over again - but it is different in a way that's not really fully explainable until you've come up and done some.

@mikecweb....

Often times, it is "more difficult" because we make it that way - that's a cultural thing that we should be trying to limit - and the younger generation of Alaskan aviators is in general actively working towards a safer, easier, type of flying.

Glad to hear that

That said, I don't really think you're qualified to talk about Alaskan operations in the same way I'm not qualified to talk about 121 operations.

Then why is it so hard for some to wrap around their head that an airline like Delta, doesn't need Alaska Airlines permission to go into JNU and shoot a RNP approach?

 

[mikecweb]

I have experienced many of those conditions you talked about on the same flight flying from KBOS to KRKD.



@mikecweb....



Glad to hear that



Then why is it so hard for some to wrap around their head that an airline like Delta, doesn't need Alaska Airlines permission to go into JNU and shoot a RNP approach?

lol. Almost word for word.

 

[ShortField]

Then why is it so hard for some to wrap around their head that an airline like Delta, doesn't need Alaska Airlines permission to go into JNU and shoot a RNP approach?

I'm not sure anyone said they did, just that Alaska has the operational expertise and local knowledge to do it more reliably.

 

[Seggy]

First off what does the GA/135 accident rate have to do with anything in this discussion?

It has everything to do with this thread and the attitude permeated from the pilots on here from Alaska. Sorry, it isn't that different flying than others in the 48 see! You wondering if the Delta guys have started to shoot the LDA in JNU is a perfect example. I am sure the Delta guys will have NO problem doing it. I looked at the approach and it isn't that much different than the LDA into another airport.

I gather that's your default response to anything Alaska related.

Not at all.

Secondly I have no unrequited love for all things Alaska Airlines, I am well aware of the price gouge I pay for the only game in town. I totally am for another carrier in the Southeast market, but it's frustrating to see another half attempt just to be a one up in the pissing match between the two carriers.

You REALLY think Delta is going to half ass it?

This is a very small place and there has not been a whisper of any ground work started for Delta to come in and do the job right, also take it as a sign the they are not here for the long haul.

Airlines, such as Delta, can TDY ground staff from other stations for the summer to run the station while Delta is serving it seasonally. Happens ALL the time. Did you think of the possibility Delta will do that?

As for myself.. I was a committee member on the Juneau Airspace agreement, I was involved in the 2 years of meeting with the working group on TA/RA conflicts that was able to keep the the FAA from making Juneau SFAR airspace. Grab a Juneau sectional.. See the Juneau area inset? Was on the team that got that developed and pushed through the charting office. So what is comical is that you discount people who are on the ground and actually work at the Juneau airport and have experience in Southeast, got it.

Glad to see you got involved.

So preach all you want from the RJ pulpit...

I have never flown an RJ.

 

[z987k]

You are right. There are less places to put a jet down south of the border than a Caravan in Alaska.



You are describing Guatamala City, Panama City, Bogata, Guadalajara, and about another dozen airports down south. No flare pots though, but not adequate lighting.



None.



I don't need it to say hazardous on the chart to know it is hazardous.



We have a lot of layovers that can turn bad quickly like that.



I fail to see how it is different.

The two bold items don't make sense. You're saying you don't have operations that generally preclude go arounds being a possibility, but it's the same?

 

[X-Forces]

 

[Capt. Chaos]

I have experienced many of those conditions you talked about on the same flight flying from KBOS to KRKD.



@mikecweb....



Glad to hear that



Then why is it so hard for some to wrap around their head that an airline like Delta, doesn't need Alaska Airlines permission to go into JNU and shoot a RNP approach?

Why is hard to wrap your head around the idea that Alaska owns the only RNP approaches to JNU. And there has been no Delta team anywhere in Southeast working on their own, let alone a jet doing proving runs.

 

[Seggy]

I'd really like to hear how your layovers can turn into survival situations.

You can ask the crews that were involved in a terroristic attack in India a few years ago. Then there are the places like Lagos and Caracas that are a hair away from a revolution at anyone time.

You step out of the airplane 500 miles from the nearest road into -40F often?

No

How about the gravel runways built into a mountain with 10% slopes? I really don't think you're doing that in an RJ.

You fly an airplane that can handle it in those conditions. RJs can handle the conditions they fly in.

I am not saying Alaska flying is the be all end all. It is not. But it certainly isn't the same.

Sounds the same.

 

[flightprofessor]

Won't be worth anything if they don't have the AS proprietary approaches, especially the RNP 26.

It's probably my rambunctiousness, but if I were Delta, I'd just craft my own RNPs. Then I'd rent 'em to American and United and every other swingin' wing that wanted to fly to Juneau. Or I'd use the the LDA. If you can't beat 'em... outfly 'em.

 

[Seggy]

Why is hard to wrap your head around the idea that Alaska owns the only RNP approaches to JNU.

Delta can develop their own.

And there has been no Delta team anywhere in Southeast working on their own, let alone a jet doing proving runs.

Because they are probably working on it in their 737 simulators before they do proving runs. They don't NEED to be in JNU to figure this out.

 

[Seggy]

The two bold items don't make sense. You're saying you don't have operations that generally preclude go arounds being a possibility, but it's the same?

Why would you fly into an airport you can't go around from?

 

[z987k]

It has everything to do with this thread and the attitude permeated from the pilots on here from Alaska. Sorry, it isn't that different flying than others in the 48 see! You wondering if the Delta guys have started to shoot the LDA in JNU is a perfect example. I am sure the Delta guys will have NO problem doing it. I looked at the approach and it isn't that much different than the LDA into another airport.

You should probably read the plate again then. I'm not aware of another one like it in the world. You sure you didn't read the LDA-X? The LDA-Z isn't publicly available.

 

[Seggy]

It's probably my rambunctiousness, but if I were Delta, I'd just craft my own RNPs.

Exactly.