Guess they didn't learn the first time.. Delta's new KSEA-PAJN run.

[Seggy]

So wait a minute. Alaska is operationally no different than anywhere else. So everywhere else you have scheduled passenger service running piston singles in FAA legal VFR minimums? Everywhere else there are scheduled airlines that run nothing but floatplanes? Everywhere else has 80 years of expectations that guys will do crazy things to make it in that you have to push back against every single day to make sure that you're going to stay alive and certificated?

The equipment is different, but the threats are the same if you are flying into the bush in Alaska or a place like GUA in a jet. Bad terrain, weather conditions that can change at a moment's notice, sloping runway, marginal runway for the aircraft you are flying in there, etc., and in a place like GUA you have a language barrier. You don't have that in the bush in Alaska.

 

[Seggy]

Where did ANYONE say that Delta guys couldn't hack flying an RNP approach into Alaska, because Alaska? Nowhere. What we actually said was that without good approaches the service will be useless.

Fine, if you said that, don't you guys think Delta knows that?

Did you ever think that maybe some of us outside the Big Airline World aren't well acquainted with who does and who doesn't do a lot of RNP stuff?

Yes.

But the underlying tone I picked up was 'Delta is going to have issues in JNU because they aren't from Alaska'

Several Delta guys came in and (unneccearrily condescendingly) informed us that Delta is in fact one of the carriers that's big into RNP approach development and will in fact probably do that in Juneau.

I don't want to assume, but they may have picked up the same things I picked up.

Instead you read what you wanted to read and tried to take the thread off on a tangent by calling people you've never met dangerous, egotistical hacks.

I am saying that Alaska has a horrific safety record compared to the rest of the 48 when the conditions are similar to the lower 48. More similar than is being acknowledged. Why is that?

You're welcome to ride along any day with any of us up here so we can laugh as you struggle to pretend to be truthful when you tell us that it's exactly like what you did back at Colgan.

It is more similar than you think.

 

[Roger Roger]

I am saying that Alaska has a horrific safety record compared to the rest of the 48 when the conditions are similar to the lower 48. More similar than is being acknowledged. Why is that?

Its because we're a bunch of dangerous, incompetent hacks with chronic get-there-itis who don't know what a FAR is, and will fly any dilapidated old piece of crap in any weather imaginable to prove to the world that we're bigger men.

There now that you've heard what you want to hear, will you stop talking?

 

[Seggy]

Its because we're a bunch of dangerous, incompetent hacks with chronic get-there-itis who don't know what a FAR is, and will fly any dilapidated old piece of crap in any weather imaginable to prove to the world that we're bigger men.

There now that you've heard what you want to hear, will you stop talking?

I am not saying that at all.

 

[genot]

Completely off subject... are you seeing a lot of RNP inhibits due to traffic? This was my big doubt about the efficacy of the RNP program. When SWA came in swinging about gliding to the airport, my thought was, "Well, yeah, that sounds great, but what if some SKW bro is shooting the ILS just then? What happens in that case? Do you spin SKW?"

Yeah we see more requests for an rnp that won't work than will. If there is traffic they just don't work and I'll tell them to expect the advertised approach. The whole they could be this speed or that speed, this altitude or that works great with a single airplane in a simulation.

I hate those things personally. 99% of the time I descend someone below the associated RNAV STAR floor hoping to make them number one they continue at the same anemic decent rate.

 

[ClarkGriswold]

Why do I forsee a scenario where Delta will come out with lower minimums then the eskimos? I mean they seem to be playing who's the boss here and well, last I checked they are printing money. Delta is on a mission and will prove our Northern brothers wrong I am sure. Anywho back to our regularly scheduled scud running talk...

 

[z987k]

It really is no different than anywhere else in the country. I have very clearly stated on why it is no different, but the Alaska folks don't even want to hear it.

Continuously stating something doesn't make it true. You keep saying it, and we keep providing evidence as to why you are wrong. You are the one the won't hear it, yet have no experience in our environment. We have flown in yours. I know at least myself and ppragman have done a lot more flying than just Alaska. I understand the weather and conditions you had there at Colgan, we've flown in that area to.
You've even said you're not willing to do some of the flying we do here. Apparently it must be different then because you're not turning down flights because you're not willing to go to X airport.
GUA is nothing like ANY of the LRRS strips. It's downright flat in comparison. Not to mention dozens that don't have identifiers or any information to go with them.

 

[Roger Roger]

Why do I forsee a scenario where Delta will come out with lower minimums then the eskimos? I mean they seem to be playing who's the boss here and well, last I checked they are printing money. Delta is on a mission and will prove our Northern brothers wrong I am sure. Anywho back to our regularly scheduled scud running talk...

They might, though IIRC right now the RNP 26 is 1SM and 400. I don't know the requirements that delta works under for building their RNP stuff but I doubt for a runway with no approach lights and with the final not aligned with runway course they could get much lower than that.

 

[derg]

They've done ok flying into BFE Africa, flying the canyons of a dormant volcano in Quito, I think they're going to do alright in Juneau.

You guys do know that there's an entire department with a sole purpose of looking at stuff like this and it's not like "Oh hey, let's fly to Juneau, we'll figure the details out, well, later!"

Some of you guys are hilarious.

 

[z987k]

They might, though IIRC right now the RNP 26 is 1SM and 400. I don't know the requirements that delta works under for building their RNP stuff but I doubt for a runway with no approach lights and with the final not aligned with runway course they could get much lower than that.

I've never seen the RNP special, is there a step down after the cut, with no requirement for the lead in lights? It seems like 400 feet would be well past any kind of a VDP, and you'd be landing a bit long.

 

[z987k]

They've done ok flying into BFE Africa, flying the canyons of a dormant volcano in Quito, I think they're going to do alright in Juneau.

You guys do know that there's an entire department with a sole purpose of looking at stuff like this and it's not like "Oh hey, let's fly to Juneau, we'll figure the details out, well, later!"

Some of you guys are hilarious.

I have no doubt delta will have no trouble flying to Juneau. Any certificated air carrier should have no issue with it.

 

[ClarkGriswold]

I've never seen the RNP special, is there a step down after the cut, with no requirement for the lead in lights? It seems like 400 feet would be well past any kind of a VDP, and you'd be landing a bit long.

So you're saying only Alaskan pilots could pull this off?

 

[Boris Badenov]

If I understand the Alaska Salties on this one, their complaint isn't that Delta are a bunch of amateurs who are going to decorate the landscape with 737s. It's that Seggy singlehandedly turned a minor pissing-contest about a couple of airlines and their relative merits in to a major one about how he knows just exactly what every type of flying ever done under the sun is like, and really it would be best for everyone involved if they just stopped with their silly "been there, done that" and started listening to his hierophantic knowledge from On High about how everyone should operate every airplane ever built, because, you know, he flew turboprops in the most ILS-saturated part of the United States and even got some ice on his wings a few times!

I'm no expert, but that seems like a legit complaint to me. I mean, I've done some flying that other people think is Hardcore. And it mostly wasn't, yeah. But I reckon I know more about it than someone who hasn't done it, or anything like it. Which is why I have a "listen and learn" attitude towards Alaska flying. You put me up there and I very likely couldn't tell my ass from my elbow. Why is this hard for people to admit?

 

[z987k]

If I understand the Alaska Salties on this one, their complaint isn't that Delta are a bunch of amateurs who are going to decorate the landscape with 737s. It's that Seggy singlehandedly turned a minor pissing-contest about a couple of airlines and their relative merits in to a major one about how he knows just exactly what every type of flying ever done under the sun is like, and really it would be best for everyone involved if they just stopped with their silly "been there, done that" and started listening to his hierophantic knowledge from On High about how everyone should operate every airplane ever built, because, you know, he flew turboprops in the most ILS-saturated part of the United States and even got some ice on his wings a few times!

I'm no expert, but that seems like a legit complaint to me.

Yes.

 

[z987k]

So you're saying only Alaskan pilots could pull this off?

No, I'd actually like to see the plate. It's been 3 ish months since I've been there and I've only done the LDA-Z which has an MDA of 1000 with a missed before the cut and if you continue pass the missed, there's no terrain separation guarantee on the missed anymore. Also the cut has a high point of 479', so clearly there has to be a step down after it, and it's roughly 3 miles from there to the runway. In my head it's hard to think of how that would be stable and I'd like to see the climb gradient required on the missed.

 

[Seggy]

If I understand the Alaska Salties on this one, their complaint isn't that Delta are a bunch of amateurs who are going to decorate the landscape with 737s. It's that Seggy singlehandedly turned a minor pissing-contest about a couple of airlines and their relative merits in to a major one about how he knows just exactly what every type of flying ever done under the sun is like, and really it would be best for everyone involved if they just stopped with their silly "been there, done that" and started listening to his hierophantic knowledge from On High about how everyone should operate every airplane ever built, because, you know, he flew turboprops in the most ILS-saturated part of the United States and even got some ice on his wings a few times!

I'm no expert, but that seems like a legit complaint to me.

 

[ppragman]

If I understand the Alaska Salties on this one, their complaint isn't that Delta are a bunch of amateurs who are going to decorate the landscape with 737s. It's that Seggy singlehandedly turned a minor pissing-contest about a couple of airlines and their relative merits in to a major one about how he knows just exactly what every type of flying ever done under the sun is like, and really it would be best for everyone involved if they just stopped with their silly "been there, done that" and started listening to his hierophantic knowledge from On High about how everyone should operate every airplane ever built, because, you know, he flew turboprops in the most ILS-saturated part of the United States and even got some ice on his wings a few times!

I'm no expert, but that seems like a legit complaint to me. I mean, I've done some flying that other people think is Hardcore. And it mostly wasn't, yeah. But I reckon I know more about it than someone who hasn't done it, or anything like it. Which is why I have a "listen and learn" attitude towards Alaska flying. You put me up there and I very likely couldn't tell my ass from my elbow. Why is this hard for people to admit?

Yeah - that's exactly what I'm trying to say. The bolded portion is exactly what I wanted to say, I'm just not eloquent enough to sum it up that concisely.

 

[ppragman]

I have no doubt delta will have no trouble flying to Juneau. Any certificated air carrier should have no issue with it.

IF they have a good enough approach - otherwise there will be reliability issues, and it doesn't matter how cheap the ticket is, locals won't buy. Miss enough cruise ship connections by going missed and the tour companies won't book either.

 

[Roger Roger]

I've never seen the RNP special, is there a step down after the cut, with no requirement for the lead in lights? It seems like 400 feet would be well past any kind of a VDP, and you'd be landing a bit long.

I'm talking about the 26 approach which to my knowledge is the lower of the two.

 

[ppragman]

I'm talking about the 26 approach which to my knowledge is the lower of the two.

I thought that one was down to 3/4 mile?