Guess they didn't learn the first time.. Delta's new KSEA-PAJN run.

[Capt. Chaos]

http://www.ktoo.org/2013/12/16/delta-challenges-alaska-airlines-on-seattle-juneau-route/

 

[Ayork62493]

I knew it was comin. What'a shame

 

[Roger Roger]

Won't be worth anything if they don't have the AS proprietary approaches, especially the RNP 26.

 

[Dan208B]

Man this whole thread is full of Alaska Airlines kool-aid. I think you'll find Juneau residents will welcome Delta in with open arms, it's some minor competition that will drive ticket prices down a bit. What's the shame? From what I understand, the RNP approaches are proprietary to an extent, but Alaska cannot block them from gaining access, provided they pay a fair share (according to the FAA).

 

[crazyjaydawg]

I don't understand why the fuss about the proprietary approaches. You don't think that an airline that profits over $1 billion in a quarter might have the resources available to come up with their own approaches?

I'm going to go ahead and make a very educated guess that Delta has plans for this type of operation. I'm also pretty sure that they have the capability to create and implement their own RNP approaches, don't let the Alaska kool-aid fool you on this one.

 

[derg]

I little birdy tells me that DL helped, in part, to develop their RNP program, but that could have been schoolhouse grandeur.

 

[crazyjaydawg]

I little birdy tells me that DL helped, in part, to develop their RNP program, but that could have been schoolhouse grandeur.

If I remember correctly, it was more like Delta dba NWA worked to develop the RNP program.

In all fairness I think pre merger both airlines had great plans and programs going, but I'm sure it's taken a couple years to work out the kinks and get both ideologies working in the same direction. I am also guessing that DAL would like the RNP approaches to be rolled out on a much bigger scale, so excess time was taken to implement a more robust program. But I'm just making a WAG, I mean what would I know?

 

[Cptnchia]

Really, some of y'all act like AS is the only airline that knows what RNP approaches are. We've been doing them all over the world for several years, helping other countries develop their procedures, and even helping to develop approaches here in the USA. Where do you think all the RNP approaches in ATL are coming from?

 

[Boris Badenov]

Sometimes these threads are like reading a "Ford vs. Chevy" moronothon. Competition is sweet. Best thing for the rest of us is if they compete each other right in to free tickets.

 

[MikeD]

Really, some of y'all act like AS is the only airline that knows what RNP approaches are. We've been doing them all over the world for several years, helping other countries develop their procedures, and even helping to develop approaches here in the USA. Where do you think all the RNP approaches in ATL are coming from?

AirTran........

 

[crazyjaydawg]

AirTran........

Oh no he didn't!

 

[Capt. Chaos]

And those are public approaches, Alaska's are entirely their own, not available to anyone else. Alaska also operates by an entirely different set of TERPS with their RNP. Delta has tried Juneau before.. yes the locals get excited over the price war, but in the end they still flew Alaska because Alaska could get in and Delta cancelled or was diverting day after day.

Any Delta guys start sim checks for Juneau LDA Z yet?

And its not drinking the kool aid... just 20 years in SE Alaska aviation.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

 

[Cptnchia]

Well, I guess Delta has two options. Either create their own RNPs or get SWA to demand that AS release them to the public. I'd lay money on the SWA approach. They get whatever they want.

 

[Seggy]

This is probably going to piss some people off, but I don't care. I call it as I see it.

In the nearly 10 years I have been on here, I have noticed that the pilots that fly in Alaska have a chip on their shoulder, seem to think that flying in Alaska is the 'be all end all' in aviation, and that no one else has a clue on what they are doing. PERFECT example is that we have Alaska folks on here seriously wondering if Delta can figure out how to do a RNP approach into JNU (nicely put @crazyjaydawg and @Cptnchia) and if they can aquire gate space without Alaska Airlines help. It really is extremely comical to be reading some of these posts as the pilots flying in Alaska seem to be wanting to put Delta Airlines on their knee, and explain, to Delta, how things work. The accident rate in Alaska sucks and I truly think that this attitude displayed by the pilots that fly in Alaska has a lot to do with it. The conditions aren't easy, but it isn't exactly easy flying in other conditions others face across in the United States. It is just done at a lower accident rate than we see in Alaska.

 

[mikecweb]

This is probably going to piss some people off, but I don't care. I call it as I see it.

In the nearly 10 years I have been on here, I have noticed that the pilots that fly in Alaska have a chip on their shoulder, seem to think that flying in Alaska is the 'be all end all' in aviation, and that no one else has a clue on what they are doing. PERFECT example is that we have Alaska folks on here seriously wondering if Delta can figure out how to do a RNP approach into JNU (nicely put @crazyjaydawg and @Cptnchia) and if they can aquire gate space without Alaska Airlines help. It really is extremely comical to be reading some of these posts as the pilots flying in Alaska seem to be wanting to put Delta Airlines on their knee, and explain, to Delta, how things work. The accident rate in Alaska sucks and I truly think that this attitude displayed by the pilots that fly in Alaska has a lot to do with it. The conditions aren't easy, but it isn't exactly easy flying in other conditions others face across in the United States. It is just done at a lower accident rate than we see in Alaska.

+1.
Well said wookie.

 

[Roger Roger]

This is probably going to piss some people off, but I don't care. I call it as I see it.

In the nearly 10 years I have been on here, I have noticed that the pilots that fly in Alaska have a chip on their shoulder, seem to think that flying in Alaska is the 'be all end all' in aviation, and that no one else has a clue on what they are doing. PERFECT example is that we have Alaska folks on here seriously wondering if Delta can figure out how to do a RNP approach into JNU (nicely put @crazyjaydawg and @Cptnchia) and if they can aquire gate space without Alaska Airlines help. It really is extremely comical to be reading some of these posts as the pilots flying in Alaska seem to be wanting to put Delta Airlines on their knee, and explain, to Delta, how things work. The accident rate in Alaska sucks and I truly think that this attitude displayed by the pilots that fly in Alaska has a lot to do with it. The conditions aren't easy, but it isn't exactly easy flying in other conditions others face across in the United States. It is just done at a lower accident rate than we see in Alaska.

So now we're dangerous because we are rooting for the home team and also genuinely curious about how some of the logistics are going to work?

 

[z987k]

This is probably going to piss some people off, but I don't care. I call it as I see it.

In the nearly 10 years I have been on here, I have noticed that the pilots that fly in Alaska have a chip on their shoulder, seem to think that flying in Alaska is the 'be all end all' in aviation, and that no one else has a clue on what they are doing. PERFECT example is that we have Alaska folks on here seriously wondering if Delta can figure out how to do a RNP approach into JNU (nicely put @crazyjaydawg and @Cptnchia) and if they can aquire gate space without Alaska Airlines help. It really is extremely comical to be reading some of these posts as the pilots flying in Alaska seem to be wanting to put Delta Airlines on their knee, and explain, to Delta, how things work. The accident rate in Alaska sucks and I truly think that this attitude displayed by the pilots that fly in Alaska has a lot to do with it. The conditions aren't easy, but it isn't exactly easy flying in other conditions others face across in the United States. It is just done at a lower accident rate than we see in Alaska.

Not to hijack this thread, but the attitude problem I see is the default to VFR in all situations. SHTF? Go down and towards terrain. It's like everyone started in helicopters. Also the severe lack of IFR proficiency. It's changing, but we need the old timers to retire.

 

[ppragman]

This is probably going to piss some people off, but I don't care. I call it as I see it.

In the nearly 10 years I have been on here, I have noticed that the pilots that fly in Alaska have a chip on their shoulder, seem to think that flying in Alaska is the 'be all end all' in aviation, and that no one else has a clue on what they are doing. PERFECT example is that we have Alaska folks on here seriously wondering if Delta can figure out how to do a RNP approach into JNU (nicely put @crazyjaydawg and @Cptnchia) and if they can aquire gate space without Alaska Airlines help. It really is extremely comical to be reading some of these posts as the pilots flying in Alaska seem to be wanting to put Delta Airlines on their knee, and explain, to Delta, how things work. The accident rate in Alaska sucks and I truly think that this attitude displayed by the pilots that fly in Alaska has a lot to do with it. The conditions aren't easy, but it isn't exactly easy flying in other conditions others face across in the United States. It is just done at a lower accident rate than we see in Alaska.

The accident rate sucks, and culture has a lot to do with that, however, flying up here is different. It is almost completely different from any other type of flying across the country I've done. There are similarities - but by and large, it is two to three times more difficult than any flying I've done down south. Even simple things like getting an accurate NOTAM are often impossible. The approach infrastructure is inadequate, there are no phones, no FBOs, no weather reporting, inaccurate forecasting (way more than in the lower 48 imo) and less capable equipment. The economic pressure is substantially more "pushy" than places I've been down south (though where I work now is a notable exception to this rule). There are scenarios you can be in where continuing legally is less safe than busting a reg - and there's nowhere to divert to. There are places that don't have viable alternates - combine that with a busted forecast and you're looking at some sketchy flying. There is no infrastructure.

As a pilot who takes safety seriously at a charter company that takes safety seriously (and I truly believe we do) here are a few of the things I've had to contend with this last year:

Breaking out at mins (about 500'AGL) at an airport that was reporting 2200 OVC (bad ASOS)

Flying through a GPS deadspot over the Bering sea.

Operating out of an 1800' strip in the Pilatus

Unforecast 100kt headwind causing a diversion for fuel.

Calling a local (because the last NOTAM was published last summer) for a runway report - being told "it's fine, breaking action good" - landing there in 3" of slush - this happened 3 times.

Complete 180° weather changes in the space of 10 - 15 minutes resulting in having to cram and climb for a pop up.

Numerous busted forecasts resulting in diversions.

Severe unforecasted icing.

Landing in -38°C at a village - having to plug portable heaters in to a portable generator to keep the engines warm enough to be able to restart the airplane after 1hr of standby.

And these are common occurrences.

The lower 48 had thunderstorms - those were remarkably sketchy, that said in the winter months, everything is against you but density altitude. In the summer, almost everything is against you.

 

[Seggy]

So now we're dangerous because we are rooting for the home team and also genuinely curious about how some of the logistics are going to work?

First, I get rooting for the home team. I think Delta's war against Alaska Airlines may be biting more than they can chew. Alaska Airlines has a VERY unique culture, business plan, customer base, and employees.

Secondly, I got my ass verbally handed to me by a lot of folks because I called it like I saw it with a guy playing around in his Super Cub/Husky/whatever plane he was flying in a river bed. No one wanted to listen to what I had to say. Fine, no one has too, but Alaska has a much higher rate of accidents than the rest of the United States. Why is that? I will point to the culture bred.

Thirdly, the fact that Delta can fly a RNP approach they don't need to get from Alaska Airlines illustrates my point that the world doesn't revolve aviation in Alaska.

 

[Seggy]

The accident rate sucks, and culture has a lot to do with that, however, flying up here is different. It is almost completely different from any other type of flying across the country I've done.

@mikecweb, care to share the PM I sent you about forty five minutes before this post?

There are similarities - but by and large, it is two to three times more difficult than any flying I've done down south. Even simple things like getting an accurate NOTAM are often impossible. The approach infrastructure is inadequate, there are no phones, no FBOs, no weather reporting, inaccurate forecasting (way more than in the lower 48 imo) and less capable equipment.

You are describing a lot of smaller airports in the United States as well as EVERY airport south of the border in Central and South America. Only difference here is that in Central and South America, you are dealing with controllers where English is (99% of the time) their second language. So you aren't painting a picture by these points on how it is 'different' in Alaska. Any others you want to bring up?

The economic pressure is substantially more "pushy" than places I've been down south (though where I work now is a notable exception to this rule).

I am sure you haven't seen EVERY place 'down south'. I am sure there are places in the lower 48 more pushy than in Alaska and places that are less pushy.

There are scenarios you can be in where continuing legally is less safe than busting a reg - and there's nowhere to divert to. There are places that don't have viable alternates - combine that with a busted forecast and you're looking at some sketchy flying. There is no infrastructure.

You are describing the flying I (along with others on here that are based in the 48) do to Central and South America.

As a pilot who takes safety seriously at a charter company that takes safety seriously (and I truly believe we do) here are a few of the things I've had to contend with this last year:

Ok

Breaking out at mins (about 500'AGL) at an airport that was reporting 2200 OVC (bad ASOS)

Happened to a lot of CJC Slaab and Beech guys in places like KBKW, KBLF, KRKD, KBHB, KAUG, KLEB. I am sure it happening to the Cape Air guys now.

Flying through a GPS deadspot over the Bering sea.

Ok

Operating out of an 1800' strip in the Pilatus

That sounds like a long runway for a Pilatus

Unforecast 100kt headwind causing a diversion for fuel.

Happened to me in the Beech 1900 one time from ISP to IAD.

Calling a local (because the last NOTAM was published last summer) for a runway report - being told "it's fine, breaking action good" - landing there in 3" of slush - this happened 3 times.

Happened all the time in KRKD.

Complete 180° weather changes in the space of 10 - 15 minutes resulting in having to cram and climb for a pop up.

Numerous busted forecasts resulting in diversions.

Happened all the time at CJC.

Severe unforecasted icing.

Ever fly over the Great Lakes in the winter time? Or into KBTV?

Landing in -38°C at a village - having to plug portable heaters in to a portable generator to keep the engines warm enough to be able to restart the airplane after 1hr of standby.

KPQI also gets cold.

The lower 48 had thunderstorms - those were remarkably sketchy, that said in the winter months, everything is against you but density altitude. In the summer, almost everything is against you.

Huh?

Anyway, I fail to see how it is 'different' flying in Alaska than the lower 48 from your points. As I said on here, other pilots have dealt with these circumstances at airports outside of Alaska.