Guess they didn't learn the first time.. Delta's new KSEA-PAJN run.

[Seggy]

A company that specializes in operating up here already has the infrastructure, systems, and operational knowledge in place - Delta has to generate some of that from scratch to break into a new market.

Wow.

Just like......





.......wow.....



Am I reading this right?

 

[z987k]

I have clearly countered every point to why it ISN'T more complex compared to what other pilots in the lower 48 do. Yet, no one is actually looking at what I am saying, and is just pissed off that I dare question flying in Alaska.

And I've pointed out where you say in your own post how it is different yet you continue that it isn't. Also we're saying some of your country points are not valid.

What about a helicopter? Why is the patient there? Did they decide to live there on their own or are they a tourist?

If airplanes barely have the range, helicopters certainly don't. The reason the patient is there is irrelevant, and honestly they don't tell us nor do I care. 99% chance they live there or are stationed there, but I'm not sure how that matters. What matters is they need out and we can do it with the risk involved considered. There are days you can't do it and days you can, days you think you can but can't etc. I am pretty sure the lower 48 flying doesn't do this. We even have to have each of these airports approved in our op specs and generally approval from the entity that owns the airport.
Therefore it is different. That is all. It's different.

 

[ppragman]

Wow.

Just like......





.......wow.....



Am I reading this right?

Sure, why is that a shocker? Are you telling me that AS could just as easily drop into Quito, or GUA or some other place?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

DL operates into Tegucigalpa and other crazy places. They are sending HGS and RNP equipped 737s up to JNU. It's a special airport and will no doubt be a special checkout like we do into various other places in our global flight operation.

Acting like it's some crazy thing to operate into there is being ignorant... there are plenty of very terrain critical places we already fly to like JNU where english isn't the first language and controllers are simply yes people that will clear you into a mountain if you want to go direct.

 

[Seggy]

Sure, why is that a shocker? Are you telling me that AS could just as easily drop into Quito, or GUA or some other place?

It isn't reinventing the wheel for companies like AS or Delta to develop new markets. Look what Alaska did with Hawaii.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

What about a helicopter? Why is the patient there? Did they decide to live there on their own or are they a tourist?

Fixed or rotary... it really doesn't matter. When the Wx is down, ain't no one going. "This one guy" was stuck in a village with appendicitis during a 10 day storm low. Deliriously battered his way to Nome on a snow machine to, er, persevere. Temp went to 108 and would have been tilting at gold dredges had not a strange calm set in at that rarefied body temp. Survived. No brain damage. Well, not much.

 

[z987k]

In terms of modern Capitalism, Alaskan bush villages are to economic viability what brown rice is to bicycle chains.
There is no "need" to get to a place that fashions itself self-subsisting (unless there is something very, very wrong with that politico-ecomomic definition).
Most pilots who die in Alaska do so delivering Pepsi... or Coke (just like the rest of the "undeveloped" world, it depends on which gang holds sway).

Well then I guess we should all just not walk out our front door then. My cargo is alive... barely sometimes, but it's alive. They pay me to fly to places, and I bet I turn down at least 25% of the flights, another 25% wait until it's acceptable to launch. As far as need, well they really do need to go to a hospital and when I can say we can go bring this person to a hospital without endangering the lives of me or my crew, then we go.
As far as no go arounds, if you don't think you can perform a stable approach, don't go.

 

[ppragman]

It isn't reinventing the wheel for companies like AS or Delta to develop new markets. Look what Alaska did with Hawaii.

Whatever, man. You are entitled to your opinion - it's certainly more informed than mine is - but I don't think you truly understand the complexities of operating up here - even into JNU. When you come up to Alaska, we can go on a flight, and then we'll go grab some beer.

 

[mikecweb]

It's actually pretty lucrative - a PA31 pilot can make $100,000 / year. Most folks don't stick around though, it has a tendency to be a stepping stone to "bigger and better" things. Nothing wrong with that - it's a lot like freight in that way.

I was talking about pilot salaries. There isn't enough profit to be had by airlines/charter to go up there. More people wanna see Mickey than a moose.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Sure, why is that a shocker? Are you telling me that AS could just as easily drop into Quito, or GUA or some other place?

I think, and I certainly hope, YES, they could.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Whatever, man. You are entitled to your opinion - it's certainly more informed than mine is - but I don't think you truly understand the complexities of operating up here - even into JNU. When you come up to Alaska, we can go on a flight, and then we'll go grab some beer.

I don't think you realize the terrain critical operations DL already does on a global scale into places with very challenging/rapidly changing weather conditions already.

Heck, my avatar picture was taken when I was at one of those terrain critical places that I used to give quals into.

 

[Seggy]

I don't think you realize the terrain critical operations DL already does on a global scale into places with very challenging/rapidly changing weather conditions already.

Heck, my avatar picture was taken when I was at one of those terrain critical places that I used to give quals into.

Yep.

 

[Nick]

One simple question.
If Alaska flying isn't different, then why are there literally only two (soon to be 3) airports in the entire state served by airlines from "outside"?

Besides what @Seggy mentioned, it's also halfway to Japan from most of the lower 48.

 

[Roger Roger]

The economics preclude it.

Wait so you're saying that it IS different? I mean if the economics preclude IFR operations in multi engine, multi crew, turbine aircraft then that necessarily has an effect on flight operations amirite?

 

[Roger Roger]

At least you can hover though. I've yet to see a 208 or a BE20 do that on demand.
But seriously here's the thought process. Oh, crap! IIMC! Turn towards the mountain and DIVE!
When they can safely climb above all terrain in the whole state.

Yeah that's insane. Always safer to be 2000' above terrain solid IMC if you have the tools to do it (preferably moving map WAAS GPS and some form of terrain/TAWS) than dipping "just a little below 500, just to keep the terrain in sight".

 

[Nick]

Wait so you're saying that it IS different? I mean if the economics preclude IFR operations in multi engine, multi crew, turbine aircraft then that necessarily has an effect on flight operations amirite?

I'm not going to follow through in this very-large-debate that is going on here but I highly disagree with what you are asserting.

You asked why more airlines aren't flying to more than 2-3 cities in a place that is several hours away in a jet and each large city is separated by vast, mountainous expanse.

Procedures of actually operating into those airports once there have nothing to do with the airborne trek of getting up there, which has everything to do with the economics of whether or not it makes sense for an airline to have regular service there.

 

[Roger Roger]

@Seggy how often did you guys go VFR in legal minimums (500/2 or 1000/1 for 135) because you were going somewhere that either had no approaches, or where the approaches didn't get you low enough to be useful?

 

[Seggy]

@Seggy how often did you guys go VFR in legal minimums (500/2 or 1000/1 for 135) because you were going somewhere that either had no approaches, or where the approaches didn't get you low enough to be useful?

No where.

But once again, why would I want to land at a place without an approach?

 

[Roger Roger]

I'm not going to follow through in this very-large-debate that is going on here but I highly disagree with what you are asserting.

You asked why more airlines aren't flying to more than 2-3 cities in a place that is several hours away in a jet and each large city is separated by vast, mountainous expanse.

Procedures of actually operating into those airports once there have nothing to do with the airborne trek of getting up there.

I think we're talking past each other here, but @mikecweb's point was that the reason no outside airlines operate here is the economics. Well, guess what, the operations that DO run up here experience those same economic pressures. In many cases, this leads to smaller, less well equipped aircraft being used on routes which down south would be served by better equipped multi crew aircraft. This, in turn, has a HEYYYOOOOGE effect on the way operations run up here.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Well then I guess we should all just not walk out our front door then. My cargo is alive... barely sometimes, but it's alive. They pay me to fly to places, and I bet I turn down at least 25% of the flights, another 25% wait until it's acceptable to launch. As far as need, well they really do need to go to a hospital and when I can say we can go bring this person to a hospital without endangering the lives of me or my crew, then we go.
As far as no go arounds, if you don't think you can perform a stable approach, don't go.

I love you guys and I love what you do. I'm just saying... don't take yourselves too seriously. By and large, flying is flying. A good pilot can make it work anywhere. I'm not saying you don't have mad skills and that Alaska isn't different... it is...just not in aerodynamic ways. If somebody from the L48 is a good stick with good judgement and has mountain time and Wx time, I'd reckon they'd do just fine. Thoughts?