Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merger

pilotlight

Well-Known Member
Comair, Mesaba, and Compass
What happens to them after the merger? Do they prosper? Do they combine with each other? Are they individually bought by other regionals? What regionals would buy them?
What are your thoughts?
 

airlinetoATC

New Member
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

Word on the street is the "New Delta" likes the wholly owned. They are of the mind set that if you are gonna pay someone to do it you might as well pay yourself. They also like the ability to control the product as well as the ability to add or reduce flying very quickly. In the past year comair has been told

1. you are losing 14 airplanes!
2. the next month freedom erjs are gone you will continue to operate the 14 airplanes at high utilization. Hire 300 pilots now!!
3. freedom won the injunction sorry. Oh yea your current fleet wont be utilized as much either. Furlough 300 pilots now!
4. 3 days after the displacement bid closes. Wait our bad. We're gonna cnx freedoms 900's. Heres the first 7. Dont furlough yet. Maybe in a few months. Oh yea if you guys do well there are another 7 900's up for grabs.

Will the w/o merge?? Probably not. Doesnt give management the ability to whipsaw the pilot groups. Could ALPA argue a single carrier petition? Probably. Do they want to do that. My guess is no. Should they? I think so.


There is also probably going to be some major shuffling going around. MEM and CVG will almost certainly not be at current levels. Delta continues to get rid of turboprops even if they make tons of money. ASA ATR's begging to leave the fleet next month. Skywest operates most of their emb 120's at risk. What effect will this have on Mesaba's Saab 340's??

All im saying is there is a ton of uncertainty and speculation.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

There is also probably going to be some major shuffling going around. MEM and CVG will almost certainly not be at current levels.

I'm taking a "wait and see" on MEM. They can't expand in ATL. There's already tons of flights and delays when the wx is clear and a million. You go to MEM between pushes for NWA, and EVERY gate is open. To me, that's wasted space that could be used to relieve ATL. Most people that fly through ATL aren't flying TO ATL, so it doesn't really matter where the transfer of the passengers occurs. In fact, this is the idea Delta is selling to the City of Memphis right now and has talked about spending some $$$ to upgrade some airport facilities. We'll see, though.
 

Seggy

Well-Known Member
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

In fact, this is the idea Delta is selling to the City of Memphis right now and has talked about spending some $$$ to upgrade some airport facilities. We'll see, though.

Sounds very familiar to the PIT USAirways fiasco of the last 15 years.

They built up PIT and then let it die a slow painful death.
 

taildragger173

Well-Known Member
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

Delta management has said that Mesaba and Compass are safe during the merger. Like with everything during a merger all of the regional carriers contracts are being negotiated.

As far as Delta's removal of turbo props, Delta only controls the 12 ASA ATRs in the entire system. All of the SkyWest Brasilias are pro rate and are flown at risk by SkyWest. Delta is just the booking agent for those flights. The 12 ATRs isnt that big of a loss although with high oil prices the decision doesnt exactly make sense.
 

pilotlight

Well-Known Member
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

Delta management has said that Mesaba and Compass are safe during the merger. Like with everything during a merger all of the regional carriers contracts are being negotiated.

As far as Delta's removal of turbo props, Delta only controls the 12 ASA ATRs in the entire system. All of the SkyWest Brasilias are pro rate and are flown at risk by SkyWest. Delta is just the booking agent for those flights. The 12 ATRs isnt that big of a loss although with high oil prices the decision doesnt exactly make sense.

Well i def. think there is going to be consolidation at the regional level. Delta has stated that they want only about 4-5 regionals after the merger. Right now you have ASA, Comair, Skywest, Shuttle america, chautauqua, freedom, Pinnacle, Mesaba, and Compass
Freedom is leaving and you could probably make a case for chautauqua+shuttle and ASA+skywest as 2 regionals instead of 4 which leaves Pinnacle Comair Compass and Mesaba
I think its possible for either Mesaba and Comair to combine, or for Pinnacle to buy one of the two.
 

H46Bubba

Well-Known Member
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

In Delta's 2nd QTR filing, they talk about not renewing CHQ's contract. CHQ's contract can be cancelled with 30 days notice in 2010. The way it read is that they're trying to decide whether to take on the leased aircraft per the contract or just pay off the remaining leases which is is cheaper than option#1. I hear "wholly owened" a lot in all the merger talk from Richard Anderson and Ed Bastian. I don't know where SKW/ASA and PNCL fit in post merger.
 

taildragger173

Well-Known Member
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

I dont think you'll see mergers on the regional level under the merger between DAL and NWA. Each regional has different pay, work rules and so on. The regionals that are going to be in question are the ones that are small under the current conditions. Chautauqua (Republic Holdings) has been trying to get out of the 50 seat market for a while. Compass may end up replacing Shuttle America during the merger.

The best thing to do is sit and wait. If the new Delta wants to maintain both airlines like they've been saying that they will, then they'll have to keep their regional feed.
 

jynxyjoe

The Kickin' Chicken!
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

If I have to be at another company bought out by pinnacle I will get on a high tower with my rifle. Here's praying Mesaba stays separate.
 

WalterSobchak

Well-Known Member
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

Well i def. think there is going to be consolidation at the regional level. Delta has stated that they want only about 4-5 regionals after the merger. Right now you have ASA, Comair, Skywest, Shuttle america, chautauqua, freedom, Pinnacle, Mesaba, and Compass
Freedom is leaving and you could probably make a case for chautauqua+shuttle and ASA+skywest as 2 regionals instead of 4 which leaves Pinnacle Comair Compass and Mesaba
I think its possible for either Mesaba and Comair to combine, or for Pinnacle to buy one of the two.
Spoken like a true pinnacle fo.

(seperate rant from the post)Just like that ghey rumor about 3 months ago. I think you guys should focus on getting a contract, work rules, better pay, scope, and a better safety record before making up these little rumors. It's bad enough I have to listen to people at our company think that more 900's are on the way.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

Pinnacle's not buying Mesaba. We don't have the cash to do it anyway. That rumor pops up every once in a while, and I laugh every time I hear it. Besides, the Mesaba guys aren't dumb. They'd fight it tooth and nail, and good for 'em.

As for the more -900s, you shoulda heard the "Come on LAX!" and "We're getting JFK" chants when Delta and XJT parted ways and the Freddom -900s were getting dropped. Some guys didn't want to listen to me when I said "Comair's gonna get those -900s. Mark my words." They also didn't seem to understand that Delta owns (or leases) those -900s whereas we carry the note on ours.

As for the merger, I think Delta's done their negotiating with Pinnacle on the deal. I doubt we'll see more than the 16 we're already flying for Delta, so it's gonna be up to management here to find more flying for more -900s if they wanna make the program profitable. The NWA side is pretty solid, though. There aren't any gimmicky performance targets that they can use as an excuse to cancel the contract, and it's based on completion factor. The flight could be 4 hours late, but as long as it goes, it counts. Which is why I never get my wish on them just canceling a delayed flight. Besides, if we fall below certain targets, we have to pay THEM.....
 

jynxyjoe

The Kickin' Chicken!
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

Spoken like a true pinnacle fo.

(seperate rant from the post)Just like that ghey rumor about 3 months ago. I think you guys should focus on getting a contract, work rules, better pay, scope, and a better safety record before making up these little rumors. It's bad enough I have to listen to people at our company think that more 900's are on the way.
Pinnacle pilots need to educate their junior members.

(ranting with the rant) Had one of those pinnacle FO talking to us the day before in MEM in the smoking "garage". He's been there two months and was already bitching about how much more Mesaba FO's are paid than the pinnacle ones (because we are flying measly turboprops). My FO was pretty polite and asked what he thought Mesaba FO's should be paid ($18 bucks an hour), and I just told him "well there are very few rewards in life for being stupid" and left. (/end rant)
 

WalterSobchak

Well-Known Member
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

Pinnacle pilots need to educate their junior members.

(ranting with the rant) Had one of those pinnacle FO talking to us the day before in MEM in the smoking "garage". He's been there two months and was already bitching about how much more Mesaba FO's are paid than the pinnacle ones (because we are flying measly turboprops). My FO was pretty polite and asked what he thought Mesaba FO's should be paid ($18 bucks an hour), and I just told him "well there are very few rewards in life for being stupid" and left. (/end rant)
LOL once again let's lower the bar for every one yeah for RJ's! That's funny. Even one should make less than the lowest paid instead of the lowest paid getting a better contract. It's gonna really flip his noodle when first year FO's make $26 an hour(in 2010) to fly the measly saab.Unfortunatly that thinking is industry wide. People don't get it that FO's should paid the same regaurdless of equipment because you can't bid the position. Although our 900 FO's keep pissing people off at the same rate(and thats just here).:rolleyes:
 

jynxyjoe

The Kickin' Chicken!
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

LOL once again let's lower the bar for every one yeah for RJ's! That's funny. Even one should make less than the lowest paid instead of the lowest paid getting a better contract. It's gonna really flip his noodle when first year FO's make $26 an hour(in 2010) to fly the measly saab.Unfortunatly that thinking is industry wide. People don't get it that FO's should paid the same regaurdless of equipment because you can't bid the position. Although our 900 FO's keep pissing people off at the same rate(and thats just here).:rolleyes:
:yeahthat:

Nah man, just remember, we're all gonna have major jobs in like 2 years once we get 1000 tpic. What you get paid in the regionals is meaningless.:sarcasm:
 

gtpilot

Well-Known Member
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

The 12 ATRs isnt that big of a loss although with high oil prices the decision doesnt exactly make sense.
The ATRs are a MX money pit right now - not sure why they aren't being replaced with another prop. ASA should still be fine in the mix as long as they don't slip back into pre-2008 performance numbers.
 

pilotlight

Well-Known Member
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

Pinnacle pilots need to educate their junior members.

(ranting with the rant) Had one of those pinnacle FO talking to us the day before in MEM in the smoking "garage". He's been there two months and was already bitching about how much more Mesaba FO's are paid than the pinnacle ones (because we are flying measly turboprops). My FO was pretty polite and asked what he thought Mesaba FO's should be paid ($18 bucks an hour), and I just told him "well there are very few rewards in life for being stupid" and left. (/end rant)
Yes becuase mesaba pilots are god's gift to flying, they dont have any 300 hour pilots walking around talking about how they are flowing into delta and getting more 900's and they never make any mistakes. Every airline has its tools but i am getting sick of this Mesaba is better than pinnacle thing, we have been kicking your tails in performance for years, and this is with our crappy contract. If we are able to suceed in getting this new contract we will be even better. As far as the pinnacle buying mesaba thing, that is just my personal belief on what could happen, not what will happen. I have been through it myself when i used to be an express one pilot. Wholly Owned regionals get spun off or sold, thats just how it goes so enjoy your growth but don't think its not a possibility to be combined with someone else.
 

Trip7

Well-Known Member
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

The 12 ATRs isnt that big of a loss although with high oil prices the decision doesnt exactly make sense.
If you check the age and maintenance reliability of the ATRs you will see it makes ALOT of sense.

True story, 3 ATRahs pushed back out of the gate in ATL and taxied down the ramp. ALL three turned back and returned to the gate for maintenance before they could even get off the ramp.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Re: Fate of the wholly owned regionals after NWA/DELTA merge

Yes becuase mesaba pilots are god's gift to flying, they dont have any 300 hour pilots walking around talking about how they are flowing into delta and getting more 900's and they never make any mistakes. Every airline has its tools but i am getting sick of this Mesaba is better than pinnacle thing, we have been kicking your tails in performance for years, and this is with our crappy contract. If we are able to suceed in getting this new contract we will be even better. As far as the pinnacle buying mesaba thing, that is just my personal belief on what could happen, not what will happen. I have been through it myself when i used to be an express one pilot. Wholly Owned regionals get spun off or sold, thats just how it goes so enjoy your growth but don't think its not a possibility to be combined with someone else.
Has this really fallen into the "my regional is crappier than your regional" debate.....again? BOTH sides are guilty of doing the "one up" the other deal. Truth is we're all gonna be scrambling for a those few major jobs when they open back up. Yeah, yeah. Mesaba's got a flow through. How many years is it gonna take for the guys hired last year to flow up, though? Heck, if Pinnacle got a flow through tomorrow, there'd be 737 people in front of me trying to knock each other down, and I've been here for over 2 1/2 years. So, let's say a Mesaba new hire that got on with a seniority number at Mesaba of 1000. Not sure what the ratio of the flow through with NorthDelta is, but let's say 4 per class. If Delta has 2 classes a month, that's 125 months.....10 years. Now, I know not everyone on the seniority list is gonna want to flow through to Delta or even stick around that long, but let's even cut that number in half to 5 years. Honestly, I don't even want to be at Pinnacle that long. Mesaba's got a better contract than us, but I wouldn't really want to be at Mesaba that long, either. After 5 years at any regional, I'd be looking to make the jump to Netjets, international or something else. Once the flow through at Mesaba and Compass starts working, then I might change my tune. Until then, I've only seen flow throughs work in one direction in the post-9/11 industry.
 
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