Cleared for next approach

sixpack

New Member
IFR Question #1

You are doing multiple approaches at an airport.
You are on the published missed which has you hold at a FIX at 4000 feet.
The IAF of your next approach is the same FIX, but your outbound (PT) altitude is only 3000 feet.
If ATC clears you for the next approach while climbing through 1000' enroute to the FIX, are you still expected to climb to 4000 feet (the hold altitude)?
If not, how do you plan the climb (Reduce climb rate to hit 3000' vs. Level out when you reach 3000'?)


IFR Question #2:
You are vectored to the localizer, but the controller says "Cleared for the ILS 31 Approach" (didn't say "straight in").
Can you assume that you are cleared straight in, since you were vectored to the localizer (not to the IAF).?
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
1) If you are cleared for the approach beofre you get turned around (or minus vectors to the IAF) you climb (no reduction in climb rate) to 4,000 cross the fix and start my descent to 3,000, fly the procedure turn and then fly the approach. At least that's what I would do with no further input from ATC. I would however query them and ask if they wanted me to go to 4,000 or just level it out at 3,000. I'm assuming this is a practice approach - if it were the real thing you'd probably betols to fly the published (meaning go to 4,000 and hold and get an EFC time) or they'd give you vectors back around.

2) Don't understand this one. If you are vectored to the ILS and then cleared for the approach you fly the LOC till you intercept the GS and follow it in.
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
#1) What's the altitude for the missed approach segement? 4000'? Then you go to 4000 and descend to 3000 after crossing the fix.

#2) Um... yeah? What else would you do? You're on a vector and cleared for the approach... unless you're an instrument student and end up doing S-turns around the loc (unintentionally, of course)
 

Center_Mid

Well-Known Member
1) Couldn't the second clearance be considered an amended clearance overriding the first one, thus clearing you to fly the approach without having to climb to the hold alt.? You could always just ask ATC.
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
Yes but you are on the published missed... you aren't getting vectored anywhere; you're just cleared to try the approach again.

Therefore it's your job to fly the altitudes and courses shown on the chart.

You wouldn't go down to MDA after being cleared for an approach, you'd just fly the altitude for the particular segement you're on.
 

sixpack

New Member
#1. The missed is "climb to 4000 via LOC to FIX and hold.
Throwing salt into the wound, at 90kts, I have to get 750fpm climb rate to get up to the hold altitude before reaching the fix. On a hot day, that's hard to do without slowing down to Vx=82 (we like to climb at 100 to 110 for cooling).

I'm in the camp that I should climb per the missed instructions (4000), and then descend as soon as I reach the FIX; except that it's not too practical. Your comments/replies are great. I may just call Approach control some day on the phone and ask them. I'll let you know what they say.

#2: CLARIFICATION: What I'm getting at here, is the distinction between "cleared for the approach" and "cleared for the approach STRAIGHT IN".
Normally, unless ATC says "straight-in", you must do the procedure turn as specified by the approach plate. My question is, whether or not I can assume "straight-in" on vectors to the localizer when ATC does not specifically say "straight-in".
 

SierraPilot

New Member
A procedure turn not required when:

When NoPT is depicted.
A Holding pattern is published in lieu of a procedure turn.
When flying a ARC.
When radar vectoring is being provided.
When the approach depicts PT not Authorized.
Conducting a timed approach.

As for being cleared for the approach, if your being radar vectored to the LOC then yes make a straight in, if your just going missed flying to the holding fix under pilot nav, and atc just says "cleared for the approach" then you should fly the approach as published.

Here is the AIM reference..

http://www2.faa.gov/ATPubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html#5-4-6

Ryan
 

sixpack

New Member
Heard about a guy who got in trouble. He was being vectored, and was then given, "Proceed direct to the FIX (IAF), cleared for the course". The guy went to the fix and turned inbound. From what I heard, ATC said he should have turned outbound and done the procedure turn.

[ QUOTE ]
As for being cleared for the approach, if your being radar vectored to the LOC then yes make a straight in

[/ QUOTE ] Where in the FAR/AIM did you find this specific rule... The link you gave had a lot of stuff, but I found it hard to extract an answer to this specific item from the text.

The list of "when procedure turn is not required" is great. Is that verbatim, or an interpretation (#4 specifically). I'd like to look it up (kinda like checking my own fuel) before I fly it.

Thanks
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
If ATC clears you for the next approach while climbing through 1000' enroute to the FIX, are you still expected to climb to 4000 feet (the hold altitude)?

[/ QUOTE ] What were the =words= used?

If it was, "proceed direct FIXNAME. Cleared for the KXYZ VOR-A Approach", fly to 3000' and do the procedure turn.

If the language used left any doubt, ask.
 

CRJwannabe

New Member
91.175 (j) referes to procedure turns:

91.175 (j) Limitation on procedure turns . In the case of a radar vector to a final approach course or fix, a timed approach from a holding fix, or an approach for which the procedure specifies "No PT," no pilot may make a procedure turn unless cleared to do so by ATC.
 

sixpack

New Member
Excellent! #2 has an definitive answer. You must assume straight-in when vectored to final.
Thanks CRJwannabe.

-sixpack
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
My opinion on Question #1:

I would level off at 3000, since you are now cleared for the approach. Wouldn't you agree that the new approach clearance trumps the missed approach instructions?
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
No, take it to the extremes then...

You're at 2000' in mountainous terrain; the missed approach calls for 9000', there is some kind of obstacle in your path on the missed app segement.
AFTER the IAF it calls for 2000' during the outbound turn... just because you're cleared for it doesn't mean you can fly there at 2000'.

IF they say 'fly direct' to the IAF for the next try, you are no longer on the published course but you're not on a vector either; altitude clearance is still your bag, baby. You'd just fly the OROCAs.

In any case the answer is ask ATC for an altitude!
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
How about taking a peek in the AIM. A controller WILL NOT clear you for an approach unless, either:

a.) You are established on a published segment of the approach....or if you are not, he will:

b.) Say maintain "X-thousand until established, cleared blah blah blah runwayXX approach"

That means, that we have to assume in this case, that he is on a published segment of the approach, and if the altitude over the FIX for the PT is 3,000 anyways, then he will be garunteed obstacle clearance. Besides, he's climbing up the Localizer (presumably the back course). In any case, its a confusing question without actually seeing a chart.

MikeD...care to set this straight?


Oh yeah...and:

[ QUOTE ]
IF they say 'fly direct' to the IAF for the next try, you are no longer on the published course but you're not on a vector either; altitude clearance is still your bag, baby. You'd just fly the OROCAs.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually you'd continue on the last assigned altitude (or the minimum, whichever is higher) until established.
 

sixpack

New Member
#1:
One of the DE's here says that she'd fly to 3000', but would probably reply to the controller with something like: "Roger, will cross FIX at 3000, and cleared for localizer back-course."

Also, there's a minimum climb requirement for departures of 200 ft/nm (I think it's in the AIM). To make this FIX at 4000, you'd need about 500 ft/nm. One could plan on a normal climb (to 3000) with intention of climbing in the hold. However, once you get to the FIX at 3000, you're now on the published portion of the next approach for which you are cleared, and no longer need to climb.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
#1:
One of the DE's here says that she'd fly to 3000', but would probably reply to the controller with something like: "Roger, will cross FIX at 3000, and cleared for localizer back-course."

Also, there's a minimum climb requirement for departures of 200 ft/nm (I think it's in the AIM). To make this FIX at 4000, you'd need about 500 ft/nm. One could plan on a normal climb (to 3000) with intention of climbing in the hold. However, once you get to the FIX at 3000, you're now on the published portion of the next approach for which you are cleared, and no longer need to climb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, after I posted my last response, I had a few other CFII's around here look at it, and we all came to that same basic conclusion. Good questions!
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
[ QUOTE ]
How about taking a peek in the AIM. A controller WILL NOT clear you for an approach unless, either:

a.) You are established on a published segment of the approach....or if you are not, he will:

b.) Say maintain "X-thousand until established, cleared blah blah blah runwayXX approach"

[/ QUOTE ]


Good information, but in this case you're not on a segment of the approach, you're on the missed, even if it IS on the LOC; nor have you been given an altitude to maintain. You can't assume you're established on the approach just because ATC has cleared you.

I still have to respectfully disagree with you guys; yes, you're cleared for the approach yet you are still on a published segement of the missed, meaning you must fly all courses and altitudes as shown. You can't shortcut the altitude just because you're expecting to go lower soon.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
IFR Question #1

You are doing multiple approaches at an airport.
You are on the published missed which has you hold at a FIX at 4000 feet.
The IAF of your next approach is the same FIX, but your outbound (PT) altitude is only 3000 feet.
If ATC clears you for the next approach while climbing through 1000' enroute to the FIX, are you still expected to climb to 4000 feet (the hold altitude)?
If not, how do you plan the climb (Reduce climb rate to hit 3000' vs. Level out when you reach 3000'?)

[/ QUOTE ]

MikeD says the female DE is full of it. Fly the missed as published until you reach the fix. AT the fix press with the procedure turn/course reversal/procedure track, etc, et al and also comply with the restrictions for the outbound segment, now that the missed is done. SkyGuy is correct that you're still on the published missed until you reach the fix. The altitude given for the published missed is TERPs for that segment of the IAP and is there for your safety, so follow it. Do you want to cheat altitudes designed to keep you from colliding with cumulogranite? It goes back to if in doubt and say ,for sake of argument, the frequency is congested and you can't get a word in edgewise...DO the conservative move and follow what's on the plate. Otherwise, query ATC for clarification. If they clear you to the fix at 3000', then have at it.

[ QUOTE ]

IFR Question #2:
You are vectored to the localizer, but the controller says "Cleared for the ILS 31 Approach" (didn't say "straight in").
Can you assume that you are cleared straight in, since you were vectored to the localizer (not to the IAF).?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're being vectored to the LOC, assume you're a straight-in, especially if you're already inside the IAF. THAT'S why ATC is verctoring you in the first place. Radar Vectors negate the need for a PT. And also just use some common sense. I KNOW that all of you maintain TOTAL SA and always "picture" where you are on the IAP plate. So if you're being vectored to the LOC with a standard @30 degree intercept a few miles outside the FAF, then it's inherently obvious ATC is giving you a straight-in. As someone else also added, when they clear you, they will instruct you to maintain your altitude/intercept until established (CDI breaks case) on the approach. Again, if in doubt for any reason, query ATC; along with using come common sense and good judgement.

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