Oh Qatar

[NovemberEcho]

Not having seen your exact situation, this may not be of value....but the World's Most Modern Obsolete Aircraft our airplanes have a Honeywell FMS that frequently does a dance called The Honeywell Shuffle. It usually happens when it's trying to intercept a LOC and it tends to slalom around for a while until it finally captures. I've learned several techniques to minimize it, but they're all mitigating, because you never know for sure if the damn thing is going to do it.

So if we ever come back to EWR and you see us doing that, you'll know why.

It’s rarely an issue with 121 into EWR. 99.9% it’s a corporate jet into TEB. I’ve even seen guys who are already past the IAF (but still on dogleg to intercept) make a 120 degree turn back towards it

 

[killbilly]

It’s rarely an issue with 121 into EWR. 99.9% it’s a corporate jet into TEB. I’ve even seen guys who are already past the IAF (but still on dogleg to intercept) make a 120 degree turn back towards it

That's.....weird.....

 

[Baronman]

Funny, because Airbus specifically tells you to NOT do this, despite me hearing it many times in my career. It’s still my default, but when something happens that causes me to turn off the automation, I try to see if Airbus has a procedure for it after the fact.

Management of Overspeed Events in Cruise | Safety First

Modern aircraft operate at high altitude and close to their high speed limits. As a consequence, temporary overspeed events can occur in cruise in changing wind conditions.Analysis of in-service data shows the need to remind the appropriate techniques to manage such temporary overspeed and avoid...

safetyfirst.airbus.com

Interesting that they mention full speed brakes but just looking it over briefly, they make no mention of stall margin becoming very narrow at that point. I know the boards will retract...but still....at altitude, going full board ain't gonna be pretty in a 321. (i'd rather be fast....just saying.)

 

[Skåning]

Interesting that they mention full speed brakes but just looking it over briefly, they make no mention of stall margin becoming very narrow at that point. I know the boards will retract...but still....at altitude, going full board ain't gonna be pretty in a 321. (i'd rather be fast....just saying.)

Air France almost crashed an A340 in 2011 due to an upset in cruise

The Aviation Herald

Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

avherald.com

 

[NovemberEcho]

That's.....weird.....

My guess is, it’s a result of being direct the IAF, then given a vector to join, and them not reconfiguring the fms properly after given the vector the join

 

[ShortField]

But do you click the autopilot off abeam ANC on downwind and keep your visual inside Fire Island?

Wait….why was the auto pilot still on?

 

[mikecweb]

Wait….why was the auto pilot still on?

Because the internet told him to.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Bus speed brakes? IIRC they come out instantly but when you retract them in the cruise flight levels they retract sloooooooooowly. And that low speed (whatever you call it) bar comes up, STAYS up, and falls back very slooooooooowly as the speed brakes are retracted.


Unless I was deep in the high speed regime, I would not use speed brakes on an A319/320/321 to get out of overspeed. Leave the AP on, AT on, select speed and dial it down to .73-.74 to force an immediate reduction. As the power comes back and speed reduces, then adjust to .75 or .76

 

[SteveC]

My guess is, it’s a result of being direct the IAF, then given a vector to join, and them not reconfiguring the fms properly after given the vector the join

Damn rookies. Bet you don't have any NJM call signs doing that •.

 

[inigo88]

My guess is, it’s a result of being direct the IAF, then given a vector to join, and them not reconfiguring the fms properly after given the vector the join

Agreed. Maybe I’m oversimplifying but this sounds like the tried and true:

a.) Load the approach from the FAF rather than an applicable IAF, hence losing the final approach segment prior to the FAF.

b.) Fly intercept heading assigned by ATC.

c.) Engage Approach mode or LNAV guidance which now takes you direct to the FAF (rather than intercepting the segment on your assigned heading).

d.) Panic!

 

[NovemberEcho]

c.) Engage Approach mode or LNAV guidance which now takes you direct to the FAF (rather than intercepting the segment on your assigned heading).

d.) Panic!

Well that’s not worse than the pilots who read back the “6 miles from FAF” part of the clearance as “proceed direct FAF”

 

[///AMG]

My guess is, it’s a result of being direct the IAF, then given a vector to join, and them not reconfiguring the fms properly after given the vector the join

Yeah i can think of a way to finger f*** this wrong in the 73 and get it to do that. Or i should say, a way to not do anything and just let it happen.

 

[Kingairer]

This is what happens when you can't play the magenta line video game correctly. Reminds me of that Emirates 777 at DXB with altitude hold engaged during the takeoff roll and then subsequently took off and started following the flight director pitch bar and lowered the nose down.


This Qatar case is just scary and sad.

Incident: Qatar B788 at Doha on Jan 10th 2023, steep descent after takeoff

By Simon Hradecky, created Tuesday, Feb 7th 2023 17:21Z, last updated Tuesday, Feb 7th 2023 17:26Z A Qatar Airways Boeing 787-8, registration A7-BCO performing flight QR-161 from Doha (Qatar) to Copenhagen (Denmark), departed Doha's runway 16L in night time conditions at 02:00L (23:00Z Jan 9th) and had climbed to about 1800 feet when the aircraft entered a steep descent losing 1000 feet within 24 seconds. The aircraft was subsequently recovered, climbed out and continued to Copenhagen where the aircraft landed safely about 6 hours later. According to information The Aviation Herald received on Feb 7th 2023 the first officer was pilot flying. At about 1600 feet the aircraft was cleared direct to the next waypoint and the first officer attempted to turn towards that waypoint flying manually and without flight director indications (the captain was slow to put the Direct into the FMS) but lost situational awareness sending the aircraft into a descent that reached 3000 fpm sink rate and exceeded the flap speed limits until the captain took control of the aircraft and recovered about 800 feet above water. The occurrence was not reported to the authorities and only came to light later. ADS-B Data show the aircraft reached about 1850 feet MSL measured to standard pressure (QNH 1013) then entered a descent reaching 850 feet (standard pressure) 24 seconds later while turning from 157 degrees true (runway heading) to about 110 degrees true, the aircraft subsequently levelled off momentarily and began to climb again. Metars: OTHH 091700Z 13010KT CAVOK 21/14 Q1018 NOSIG OTHH 091800Z 13008KT CAVOK 20/15 Q1018 NOSIG OTHH 091900Z 13009KT CAVOK 20/15 Q1018 NOSIG OTHH 092000Z AUTO 14011KT CAVOK 20/16 Q1016 NOSIG OTHH 092100Z AUTO 14010KT CAVOK 20/17 Q1016 NOSIG OTHH 092200Z AUTO 14011KT CAVOK 20/17 Q1015 NOSIG OTHH 092300Z AUTO 15010KT CAVOK 20/18 Q1015 NOSIG OTHH 100000Z AUTO 16010KT CAVOK 20/18 Q1014 NOSIG OTHH 100100Z AUTO 16009KT CAVOK 20/18 Q1014 NOSIG OTHH 100200Z AUTO 16009KT CAVOK 20/18 Q1014 NOSIG OTHH 100300Z 17008KT 9000 NSC 21/18 Q1015 NOSIG Map and flight trajectory based on ADS-B (Graphics: AVH/Google Earth):​

United Airlines 777 dives after departure | Flightradar24 Blog

A United Airlines dropped to just 775 feet after climbing to 2200 feet after departure from Kahului in December 2022

www.flightradar24.com

Very similar at first glance. Maybe needs a thread of its own. “Oh United…” @Cherokee_Cruiser

 

[awair]

I hate to say it but I think it’s only a matter of time before one of the ME3 does one in. FlyDubai gave a taste of what circadian swaps, long hours, and 8 days off/month can do.

Already happened: EK 521.

 

[awair]

They don’t look outside to takeoff. Straight on the flight director, no reference to anything outside whatsoever.

Not sure that’s entirely accurate: Looking ahead outside until rotation. Then on to instruments, ignoring the FD.
Once you pitch above about 7-8 degrees, there is no forward visibility. Pitching towards 15 degrees has to be on instruments, especially at night.

 

[awair]

What risk do you believe hand flying poses in visual conditions?

Asiana 214?

Another 200-hour cadet, subsequently upgraded to Captain. Definitely makes a case for the 1500-hours rule, before moving to any airline.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Asiana 214?

Another 200-hour cadet, subsequently upgraded to Captain. Definitely makes a case for the 1500-hours rule, before moving to any airline.

So how do you explain the Western European airlines who essentially have the same safety record as we do, but use almost exclusively MPL cadet style recruitment and training?

I fully support the 1500 rule, but only because it’s good for labor. I can’t say it’s necessary for safety with a straight face.

 

[tcco94]

Not sure that’s entirely accurate: Looking ahead outside until rotation. Then on to instruments, ignoring the FD.
Once you pitch above about 7-8 degrees, there is no forward visibility. Pitching towards 15 degrees has to be on instruments, especially at night.

Fair enough, it appeared to me the entire takeoff from initial pitch to takeoff was entirely inside. I don’t rely on the flight director like that on takeoff. Sure if it’s a black hole takeoff or IMC takeoff, no • …But hey maybe that’s how they are taught…

 

[awair]

So how do you explain the Western European airlines who essentially have the same safety record as we do, but use almost exclusively MPL cadet style recruitment and training?

I fully support the 1500 rule, but only because it’s good for labor. I can’t say it’s necessary for safety with a straight face.

Fair point.

Maybe they rely on proper selection and training, rather than “if you can afford to pay for the course…”

The 1500-hour rule is not perfect, but does introduce an element of filtering.

And from a purely academic approach, just because different airlines are employing MPL, doesn’t mean they are applying this in the same way.

Are we looking for standardisation (level playing field) or perfection (takeoffs=landings)?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

So how do you explain the Western European airlines who essentially have the same safety record as we do, but use almost exclusively MPL cadet style recruitment and training?

I fully support the 1500 rule, but only because it’s good for labor. I can’t say it’s necessary for safety with a straight face.

Oh. I have to give you credit. I didn’t think you’d admit that. Agreed.

Now what cat should be executed? Persian? (Ha! No pun intended).