Oh Qatar

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

This is what happens when you can't play the magenta line video game correctly. Reminds me of that Emirates 777 at DXB with altitude hold engaged during the takeoff roll and then subsequently took off and started following the flight director pitch bar and lowered the nose down.


This Qatar case is just scary and sad.

Incident: Qatar B788 at Doha on Jan 10th 2023, steep descent after takeoff

By Simon Hradecky, created Tuesday, Feb 7th 2023 17:21Z, last updated Tuesday, Feb 7th 2023 17:26Z A Qatar Airways Boeing 787-8, registration A7-BCO performing flight QR-161 from Doha (Qatar) to Copenhagen (Denmark), departed Doha's runway 16L in night time conditions at 02:00L (23:00Z Jan 9th) and had climbed to about 1800 feet when the aircraft entered a steep descent losing 1000 feet within 24 seconds. The aircraft was subsequently recovered, climbed out and continued to Copenhagen where the aircraft landed safely about 6 hours later. According to information The Aviation Herald received on Feb 7th 2023 the first officer was pilot flying. At about 1600 feet the aircraft was cleared direct to the next waypoint and the first officer attempted to turn towards that waypoint flying manually and without flight director indications (the captain was slow to put the Direct into the FMS) but lost situational awareness sending the aircraft into a descent that reached 3000 fpm sink rate and exceeded the flap speed limits until the captain took control of the aircraft and recovered about 800 feet above water. The occurrence was not reported to the authorities and only came to light later. ADS-B Data show the aircraft reached about 1850 feet MSL measured to standard pressure (QNH 1013) then entered a descent reaching 850 feet (standard pressure) 24 seconds later while turning from 157 degrees true (runway heading) to about 110 degrees true, the aircraft subsequently levelled off momentarily and began to climb again. Metars: OTHH 091700Z 13010KT CAVOK 21/14 Q1018 NOSIG OTHH 091800Z 13008KT CAVOK 20/15 Q1018 NOSIG OTHH 091900Z 13009KT CAVOK 20/15 Q1018 NOSIG OTHH 092000Z AUTO 14011KT CAVOK 20/16 Q1016 NOSIG OTHH 092100Z AUTO 14010KT CAVOK 20/17 Q1016 NOSIG OTHH 092200Z AUTO 14011KT CAVOK 20/17 Q1015 NOSIG OTHH 092300Z AUTO 15010KT CAVOK 20/18 Q1015 NOSIG OTHH 100000Z AUTO 16010KT CAVOK 20/18 Q1014 NOSIG OTHH 100100Z AUTO 16009KT CAVOK 20/18 Q1014 NOSIG OTHH 100200Z AUTO 16009KT CAVOK 20/18 Q1014 NOSIG OTHH 100300Z 17008KT 9000 NSC 21/18 Q1015 NOSIG Map and flight trajectory based on ADS-B (Graphics: AVH/Google Earth):​

 

[CFIscare]

Scary indeed but certainly not the first nor the last time this has happened.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

And yet the Europeans are quick to mock us for the 1500 rule. In 1500 hours you at least learn to fly an airplane as opposed to punch buttons and blindly follow magenta lines.

 

[Soku39]

Spectacular

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

And yet the Europeans are quick to mock us for the 1500 rule. In 1500 hours you at least learn to fly an airplane as opposed to punch buttons and blindly follow magenta lines.

Bro was hand flying, and you want to blame reliance on automation?

 

[///AMG]

Bro was hand flying, and you want to blame reliance on automation?

I won't put words into his mouth, but I took Zap's point to be that the guy apparently didn't know how to hand fly.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Those guys get worked like absolute dogs. Several US cities have multiple flights a day, and a HUGe amount of their international stuff departs midnight-3am for 14+ hr flights. And I’m sure they get screwed with circadian swaps.


I hate to say it but I think it’s only a matter of time before one of the ME3 does one in. FlyDubai gave a taste of what circadian swaps, long hours, and 8 days off/month can do.

 

[Soku39]

Those guys get worked like absolute dogs. Several US cities have multiple flights a day, and a HUGe amount of their international stuff departs midnight-3am for 14+ hr flights. And I’m sure they get screwed with circadian swaps.


I hate to say it but I think it’s only a matter of time before one of the ME3 does one in. FlyDubai gave a taste of what circadian swaps, long hours, and 8 days off/month can do.

God hell freezing over again and me agreeing with CC again, I checked, last time was mid December. The not rotating because the flight director didn't tell me to at Dubai was incredible as well.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Bro was hand flying, and you want to blame reliance on automation?

I won't put words into his mouth, but I took Zap's point to be that the guy apparently didn't know how to hand fly.

In MPL they mostly train in sims, I think they get in a real plane only once. So their stick and rudder skills are considered to be poor. Also they're trained not necessarily how to fly. But how to fly their plane (either a 737 or A320) from zero.

I think that is what Zap is getting at.

 

[Burrito]

This is what happens when you can't play the magenta line video game correctly. Reminds me of that Emirates 777 at DXB with altitude hold engaged during the takeoff roll and then subsequently took off and started following the flight director pitch bar and lowered the nose down.

[...]
This Qatar case is just scary and sad.

Incident: Qatar B788 at Doha on Jan 10th

The occurrence was not reported to the authorities and only came to light later. [...]​

A month ago this happens? Why wasn't this reported? (Double siding this question with - why, rather, is this coming to light only now?)

And I will also agree with your point; some of those folks get worked.

 

[tcco94]

I watched a video of a takeoff from these ME3 carriers. They don’t look outside to takeoff. Straight on the flight director, no reference to anything outside whatsoever. AP on ASAP. I asked a guy who flew there he said that was procedure. That’s how they are also taught to fly. So now I read stuff like this and I wonder how much hand flying experience do these pilots even have with turbine jets? I mean I get AP is used by all of us to high extent, but to be this negligent while hand flying makes me question if they have any at all

 

[///AMG]

I hate to say it but I think it’s only a matter of time before one of the ME3 does one in.

Probably an unpopular opinion, but with the current hiring environment, low low low hrs requirements, and concurrent very junior upgrades, I don't think the ME3 is the only place that is a real possibility.

 

[alaskadrifter]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but with the current hiring environment, low low low hrs requirements, and concurrent very junior upgrades, I don't think the ME3 is the only place that is a real possibility.

I’d like to think the Majors and LCCs would keep their standards high. It’s the cheap regionals and shady 135s I’m concerned about.

 

[///AMG]

I’d like to think the Majors and LCCs would keep their standards high. It’s the cheap regionals and shady 135s I’m concerned about.

I think (based on anecdotal stories) the regionals are already there. My most recent OO deadhead, and mind you this is coming from the most 121 illiterate guy out there, kind of backed that up. I can't imagine we are far behind. I say that as a guy who absolutely isn't in any position to judge. But how long before the very young former regional CAs in my NH class who were pretty good, transition to very young former regional FO's who weren't very good? I think the CAs will be fine, but I've been an experienced PIC with very bad WSO's/EWO's before.......it takes a lot of mental strength for that SA suck not to degrade your own performance.

 

[SurferLucas]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but with the current hiring environment, low low low hrs requirements, and concurrent very junior upgrades, I don't think the ME3 is the only place that is a real possibility.

From a friend at United “Almost buried a 777 out of Maui recently. Departure malfunction, captain new from the A320, FO a new hire. Distracted almost drove into the water. Scary.
Actually they missed a flap settling on retraction, slow speed upset. Recovery seconds to spare before hitting the water.”

We’re not immune to it over here…I think the industry has been relying on the “luck” cheese slice a little too much myself.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I won't put words into his mouth, but I took Zap's point to be that the guy apparently didn't know how to hand fly.

No reason to think so, any pilot can get distracted and make a mistake. The takeaway should be to use the automation because it doesn’t get fatigued, it doesn’t get distracted, etc.

 

[Comair 100ER]

Those guys get worked like absolute dogs. Several US cities have multiple flights a day, and a HUGe amount of their international stuff departs midnight-3am for 14+ hr flights. And I’m sure they get screwed with circadian swaps.


I hate to say it but I think it’s only a matter of time before one of the ME3 does one in. FlyDubai gave a taste of what circadian swaps, long hours, and 8 days off/month can do.

This is a long read, but it basically sums up working for QR.

Joining Qatar Airways after Covid - PPRuNe Forums

Middle East - Joining Qatar Airways after Covid - Im going to tell you a story. Much has been said here on these boards already about QR, but most of it isnt very specific, a lot of it clouded by emotion, or the posts didnt really have a specific conclusion. Im going to give you a much more...

www.pprune.org

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

No reason to think so, any pilot can get distracted and make a mistake. The takeaway should be to use the automation because it doesn’t get fatigued, it doesn’t get distracted, etc.

It's not perfect. It does wonky things too.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

It's not perfect. It does wonky things too.

Bro, work on your CFI.

 

[inigo88]

Ahhh, the old “almost killed everyone because you had to turn the airplane trick!”