Becoming an Aviation Attorney

[wainscottbl]

So, I am grounded, perhaps for life or at least until I am in my 40s. Seizures. So I've decided to consider law school after college. So my first intention is to become a public defender for a while, noble as is sounds, to humble myself and remember to whom and what my duty is. Then I plan to look into entering a firm. I doubt I will prosecute as I feel that's not my thing, though who knows. I know I do not want to do tax law except as it comes up or any corporate law like that. Defending robbers and murderers is better in my mind that helping very rich men find loopholes for their money. Eventually I would enter a law firm. I am not sure what direction I want to go. While I do not want to be an ambulance chaser, I would not mind the civil side of the law--torts I believe is the name.

But I'd like to know a little more about aviation law. I might not mind that side of the law given my interest in aviation. Can some aviation attorneys give me some information on the matter. I can do research but it is always good to hear from the mouth of the horse.

@Derg , would a section on aviation lawyers be worth it on the main page like with some of the other careers. It's not flying, but it might be interesting.

 

[jtrain609]

A few issues.

First, getting into law school, and then completing law school, is no small task. It makes the academics in aviation look like a joke, and makes the entry requirement look like not requirements at all. Put simply, you're going to need to take the LSAT, see where you stand, and THEN determine where you can get into school.

Second, you need to actually get through law school. ABA required courses should have a mandatory 10% failure rate.

Third, after busting your butt for 3 years, you've got to figure out what areas of law you can tolerate. I found that if I was going to be lawyering for the rest of my life, it was going to end up being as a litigator. As much interest I had in constitutional issues when I started law school, it became clear that I didn't have the intellectual capacity to even attempt to make a living on constitutional issues. Or property issues. Or securities issues. Or pretty much anything outside of criminal law and tax law. But oral advocacy? It turned out that I knew how to talk and sound like I had any idea of what I was saying.

Or said another way, the areas of law narrowed themselves for me.

Fourth, there isn't much work in aviation law, and it's certainly not in the areas pilots think it'll be in. Acquisitions, sales, and the tax issues inherent in these transactions are a part of aviation law. But regulatory interpretation and fighting the FAA to keep pilot's certificates won't likely pay the bills. Again, said another way, it'll be a secondary area of practice for you.

Let me also say how I got to where I am: I studied philosophy in undergraduate, and always said to myself that if I got furloughed, I'd go to law school. Guess what? I got furloughed, and went to law school, and my perceptions of what law school would be like, and what the practice of law would be like, were nothing like reality.

Just a few things to chew on.

 

[wainscottbl]

Well, thanks. Yeah makes sense it would be secondary if anything. I was just thinking anyway. I am majoring in liberal arts right now. I am going into my third year. We'll see how it goes. I am not sure about law school because of all the work to get in and get through. Teaching would work, too. High school though and try to do college if I decide to go doctorate--though I can always do adjunct in the mean time. I'm not cut out to teach elementary school kids, which I think it more fit for a woman (call me sexist), though I do believe it is better not to have co-ed and put students with teachers of the same sex--that's a whole different matter. This is why though I might want to be a lawyer, I certainly can't be a politician. Too honest and too many strange beliefs that don't work in American politics. Too much common sense I actually like to boast! But teaching is what I will go for if law school seems not to be my cup of tea--and I don't plan "trying" it out. I'll know soon enough if I want to go. I just feel a bit old to go, though plenty of people go in their early 30s.

 

[jskibo]

Combine them. Go to law school, then teach law. Torture the minds of the next generation of law students!

Ex fiancé went through law school in her 30s, now working on her LLM in her late, late 30s

 

[njboeingfan]

As jtrain said, there is not too much of a demand for aviation law. Unless you start your own firm, you are not likely to find much work.If you work for a firm, they will tell you what areas you will focus upon. Law school was a great academic challenge, but you do not learn much, if anything, about the practicing law.

 

[PilotDefenseAttorney]

Ditto all of the above. Law school was the most challenging and rewarding thing I have ever done. We lost more than 30% of our class over the course of 3 years - most in the first year. But, it's never too late to give it a go. After about 35 years in the aviation industry I went to law school at the age of 53. I practice corporate and business law; family law; personal injury; criminal law; and, yes, aviation law - and I love what I do. Like jtrain609, litigation is my forte. I find constitutional law too philosophical and property law too tedious. If I could practice aviation law all day long I would - but that is not likely to happen. Good luck.

 

[jtrain609]

Ditto all of the above. Law school was the most challenging and rewarding thing I have ever done. We lost more than 30% of our class over the course of 3 years - most in the first year. But, it's never too late to give it a go. After about 35 years in the aviation industry I went to law school at the age of 53. I practice corporate and business law; family law; personal injury; criminal law; and, yes, aviation law - and I love what I do. Like jtrain609, litigation is my forte. I find constitutional law too philosophical and property law too tedious. If I could practice aviation law all day long I would - but that is not likely to happen. Good luck.

I quickly developed the opinion that law school was little more than a bizarre hazing ritual that was invited upon law school students because the folks that run the state bar had to go through law school and damnit, so will everybody else that wants to be granted the privilege of attempting to take the bar.

Not that law school was useless, far from it. But I very much think we could introduce more practicality to the teaching process. I learned more during my internship at the public defenders office in one summer than I did during my entire 2L year.

 

[njboeingfan]

I agree. The third year was useless; it should be replaced with internships, clerkships, etc. How many grads know how to file simple pleadings, motions, discovery requests? That's why summer jobs and judicial clerking is great. Law school shouldnt be more than two years, but you have to justify the expensive salaries with sh-t classes. I remember useless classes where everyone earned an "A" (gender and the law, wrongful convictions, etc). I had resumes sent to me filled with these cake classes. How were these gads going to produce billable hours? Sadly, it hurts the students, but it continues the hazing that 'train mentions. Rant off.

 

[jtrain609]

I agree. The third year was useless; it should be replaced with internships, clerkships, etc. How many grads know how to file simple pleadings, motions, discovery requests? That's why summer jobs and judicial clerking is great. Law school shouldnt be more than two years, but you have to justify the expensive salaries with sh-t classes. I remember useless classes where everyone earned an "A" (gender and the law, wrongful convictions, etc). I had resumes sent to me filled with these cake classes. How were these gads going to produce billable hours? Sadly, it hurts the students, but it continues the hazing that 'train mentions. Rant off.

My school still stuck to the curve on those courses, but the average was raised from a 2.7 to a 3.4. You still had to get in the top 10% of the elective courses in order to get an A.

Which I understand isn't the same at every law school. I was talking with a friend that was going to a local top 14 program when we were doing an internship together, and mentioned in passing I was the numeric middle of my class, having a 2.7 GPA. He was shocked. He said that anybody with less than a 3.something after the first year is basically going to fail out, where our curve was set to 2.7 (which is what the ABA recommends).

Grade inflation is real at some institutions, it seems.

 

[njboeingfan]

Oh it was real at my school for sure after your 1st year. The bell curve was used for 1st year and the few 2nd year required classes, but after that, it was pretty easy to get good grades. The school wanted to boast about their bright students, IMHO. As much as I rag on it, law school was brutal and you had to be sharp to graduate. A lot of it was hazing as you stated.

We did have an aviation law class for one semester. I was expecting it to be about violations, FARs, etc. Nope. It was about air rights, unions, and a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with aviation. Man was I ticked.

 

[wainscottbl]

I quickly developed the opinion that law school was little more than a bizarre hazing ritual that was invited upon law school students because the folks that run the state bar had to go through law school and damnit, so will everybody else that wants to be granted the privilege of attempting to take the bar.

Not that law school was useless, far from it. But I very much think we could introduce more practicality to the teaching process. I learned more during my internship at the public defenders office in one summer than I did during my entire 2L year.

It's been a while since I have read about it, but the Brits have such a system and a much better system perhaps I understand. And the lawyers get to wear cool wigs and call the judge My Lord and My Lady. No, I think the British system does focus more on an internship or whatever. I have a friend up in Canada, which is not England, but under the Commonwealth. From what I understand there is is also common to start out a Crown Attorney, our District Attorney. He did that for a while and then went into practice for himself. He does criminal law, I know, and I am sure other stuff. He has not told me about law school really though and I may be much different in Canada, too. But I know that I read that in Britain there is a big thing on internship or some sort of hands on that is part of law school mandatory.

 

[PilotDefenseAttorney]

At my school the average stayed at 2.7, in fact they set it lower the first year. Everyone complained because they felt they were at a disadvantage when compared to graduates of schools with serious grade inflation. I think our professors backed off a bit 3L year but that was about it. On a positive note, I think almost everyone got some practical experience either in the school run clinics or in an intern or extern program. We were also given a lot of discretion in the subject matter of our rigorous writing requirement - which allowed me to write on what is now The Pilots Bill of Rights.

 

[wainscottbl]

I looked at a practice LSAT last night. I'll really have to get my head in focus and practice. I feel so mediocre with those sort of questions. They are not really difficult in essence, but simple really. But it's like so many other things of first principle--which is simplicity--that it becomes complex in our mind because we have to connect the first principle to what is predicated, which can be hard. Pretty much Aristotle's "Categories"--the book everyone should read or at least have an idea about. In life, you see, few people look to the essence or first cause and thus never the whole. They can only see what is in front of them. I'm good at seeing those sort of things when we are talking about ideals like justice and beauty, but when we are talking about "real" things on the LSAT, wow, I feel so mediocre in my IQ. Never even had it tested.

 

[njboeingfan]

I looked at a practice LSAT last night. I'll really have to get my head in focus and practice. I feel so mediocre with those sort of questions. They are not really difficult in essence, but simple really. But it's like so many other things of first principle--which is simplicity--that it becomes complex in our mind because we have to connect the first principle to what is predicated, which can be hard. Pretty much Aristotle's "Categories"--the book everyone should read or at least have an idea about. In life, you see, few people look to the essence or first cause and thus never the whole. They can only see what is in front of them. I'm good at seeing those sort of things when we are talking about ideals like justice and beauty, but when we are talking about "real" things on the LSAT, wow, I feel so mediocre in my IQ. Never even had it tested.

Dude dont sweat the LSAT. It has no bearing on how good a lawyer you will be or passing the bar. Just focus on it when you are ready i take it. Do practice problems and know how and why the answer is the correct choice. IQ has no bearing on the test. Patience and above all practice. I will repeat advice that was given to me by a well-respect and well known judge. He would rather hire a well prepared lawyer than a smarter lawyer. So practice and dont give up. Law school and the prep will make you cry and want to give up at times. You will be fine. Jtrain can give you good advise as he was recently in school; I've been out for over 15 years so things might have changed. Now if i can follow my on advise and finish my cfi initial

 

[jtrain609]

At my school the average stayed at 2.7, in fact they set it lower the first year. Everyone complained because they felt they were at a disadvantage when compared to graduates of schools with serious grade inflation. I think our professors backed off a bit 3L year but that was about it. On a positive note, I think almost everyone got some practical experience either in the school run clinics or in an intern or extern program. We were also given a lot of discretion in the subject matter of our rigorous writing requirement - which allowed me to write on what is now The Pilots Bill of Rights.

My 2L writing class got the privilege of writing about Bivens claims.

I still don't know a thing about them.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Best advice I ever got was from one of my law school profs on the last day of my last year: "you may have some idea what you want to do, but never let that blind you to the opportunities that present themselves."

Except for the 10 years I spent in-house with a banking software company, I've primarily been a litigator my whole career. Started with criminal defense and consumer protection, moved to more of a commercial & criminal practice (sometimes at the same time - I've done white collar defense), and spend the last 9 years in commercial litigation and aviation. The aviation has been totally rewarding, combining two loves, but unless you get into the crash litigation field or spend some marketable time as an FAA lawyer, I really think one has to combine it with other types of practice.

 

[wainscottbl]

Yeah, makes sense. Do what comes to you and there is no aviation lawyer only--unless you get lucky with something special. Thanks for the advice in general everyone.

 

[ricecakecm]

Even FAA lawyers don't spend all of their time on aviation law. They deal with contracts, HR issues, etc. in addition to violations.

 

[njboeingfan]

Best advice I ever got was from one of my law school profs on the last day of my last year: "you may have some idea what you want to do, but never let that blind you to the opportunities that present themselves."

Except for the 10 years I spent in-house with a banking software company, I've primarily been a litigator my whole career. Started with criminal defense and consumer protection, moved to more of a commercial & criminal practice (sometimes at the same time - I've done white collar defense), and spend the last 9 years in commercial litigation and aviation. The aviation has been totally rewarding, combining two loves, but unless you get into the crash litigation field or spend some marketable time as an FAA lawyer, I really think one has to combine it with other types of practice.

Are you limited to practicing in the fed courts in your circuit? I have limited practical experience with fed court (except bankruptcy).

 

[PilotDefenseAttorney]

In administrative actions there are no real limits until the case finds its way to the federal courts on appeal. When it does, you are subject to the admission requirements of the individual court and the state where the court lies. With that said, most state bars have a federal practice exemption and/or make pro hac vice admission relatively painless. Admittedly, this area is less well understood than you might expect and I think the interpretation (and application) of the rules is, in some cases, a matter of opinion - as I found out at a recent conference.