AIN/Bob Hoover honoring a scab!

[mshunter]

What actions? This is a baseless accusation at best.



I understand the importance of not crossing the picket line, which is what scab does. Of course I would never do that. I don't know about Skywest and ASA's situation. Suffice to say, there isn't much management can do if pilots really want to vote in a union. We were the last major to vote in a union because quite frankly, many thought (including me) that we were about to be bought or sold off. ALPA was voted just in time! Mgt could have thrown payraises at us (like they have done at Skywest, historically, has been a very well off regional compared to others), but here it wouldn't have made a difference. We needed ALPA protection for not just the day in/day out of this job for protection, but also M&A scenario protections.



A little too George-Bush-jr like, but okay, I'm always with the side that wants to get the best contract.



I'm sorry you feel that way. I just don't want to engage in unnecessary jumpseat wars which in the end will only end up hurting you and I.

It's not a jump seat war. This is why I say what I do about you. It's denying a scab the jump seat. I really don't think you understand the consequences of scabbing. And it's not baseless. You have admitted to not giving a crap if a scab rides your jump seat. Tell me how that's baseless. I'm not going to get into the SKW/XJT relationship any more than I already have other than saying it's Inc. who has created the mess that exists between them.

Scabs are scabs for life. Those consequences of their actions follow them around for the rest of their careers. That includes getting another job, or getting to work. Personally, letting a scab on the jump seat condones their behavior, and I've yet to meet a union rep who not only doesn't feel the same way, but who also wouldn't have my back for denying a scab the jump seat. Likewise, I don't know a single union rep who would condone me letting a scab ride the jump seat. The whole point of a union is unity.

You just don't get it.

 

[mshunter]

Denying a scab a Jumpseat will NEVER end up starting a Jumpseat war. Only other scabs would ever attempt to defend a scab.

He just doesn't get it. I'd like to see him defend that position to a union rep.

 

[MikeOH58]

It's not a jump seat war. This is why I say what I do about you. It's denying a scab the jump seat. I really don't think you understand the consequences of scabbing. And it's not baseless. You have admitted to not giving a crap if a scab rides your jump seat. Tell me how that's baseless. I'm not going to get into the SKW/XJT relationship any more than I already have other than saying it's Inc. who has created the mess that exists between them.

Scabs are scabs for life. Those consequences of their actions follow them around for the rest of their careers. That includes getting another job, or getting to work. Personally, letting a scab on the jump seat condones their behavior, and I've yet to meet a union rep who not only doesn't feel the same way, but who also wouldn't have my back for denying a scab the jump seat. Likewise, I don't know a single union rep who would condone me letting a scab ride the jump seat. The whole point of a union is unity.

You just don't get it.

Can action be taken against a union member that does allow a scab the jump seat? I'm being serious, i'm not an airline guy but i'm kind of intrigued by all of this stuff.

 

[mshunter]

Why would a pilot group vote down a union? Didn't Jetblue say no to ALPA twice before voting for it?

Some shops do okay without one. JB is/was one of those. SKW has done alright, but they also have a "pilot association" with a "working agreement". The difference is, a CBA is a legal and binding agreement, where the "contract" that SKW has, can be amended by company at any time, for any reason, without much say from the employees. They can push back against it, and create hard times for the company, but that's about it.

 

[mshunter]

Can action be taken against a union member that does allow a scab the jump seat? I'm being serious, i'm not an airline guy but i'm kind of intrigued by all of this stuff.

Directly, I'm not sure. Indirectly, you bet your ass. Get called to the CP's office for something, and see what help a union rep is if they know you have helped out a scab. When the company comes down on you like a ton of bricks, they'll just sit, and watch. It's really easy to dig your own grave in this industry. And it's even easier not to.

 

[MikeD]

Directly, I'm not sure. Indirectly, you bet your ass. Get called to the CP's office for something, and see what help a union rep is if they know you have helped out a scab. When the company comes down on you like a ton of bricks, they'll just sit, and watch. It's really easy to dig your own grave in this industry. And it's even easier not to.

So what was done with the CAL scabs who were forgiven and brought back into standing, when ALPA returned to the property there? Were they denied jumpseats, with the unique and unprecedented position they were in? And wasn't their being forgiven in the first place a slap in the face to other members? While they appear on the list, as I understand, they were still in some kind of forgiven status or good standing?

 

[mshunter]

So what was done with the CAL scabs who were forgiven and brought back into standing, when ALPA returned to the property there? Were they denied jumpseats, with the unique and unprecedented position they were in? And wasn't their being forgiven in the first place a slap in the face to other members? While they appear on the list, as I understand, they were still in some kind of forgiven status or good standing?

I couldn't tell ya. But you can see the mess it creates. Basically, the way I treat the situation is if they are on the list, "hey captain, this guy is on the list." It's the care taker of the list to make sure it's accurate, and up to date.

 

[av8tr1]

I couldn't tell ya. But you can see the mess it creates. Basically, the way I treat the situation is if they are on the list, "hey captain, this guy is on the list." It's the care taker of the list to make sure it's accurate, and up to date.

So basically you believe everything you read on the internet?

And take no responsibility for your actions because a list from the internet is the gospel?

After all you're "just following orders"

 

[mshunter]

So basically you believe everything you read on the internet?

And take no responsibility for your actions because a list from the internet is the gospel?

After all you're "just following orders"

Are you honestly going to sit there and deny the scab list? No, I'm not following orders. I'm standing up for my profession, and stepping on the necks of those who have stepped on my brothers and sisters.

I've been through a strike. My dad went out on strike when I was a kid, and ended up having to work an extra 8 years to get his pension. I've also seen the damage that scabs do to the negotiation process, and how they can drag it out much longer than it should be when people go on strike. Scabs are nothing but thiefs. They are taking money out of your our pockets during the strike, and after the strike.

 

[Cptnchia]

So basically you believe everything you read on the internet?

And take no responsibility for your actions because a list from the internet is the gospel?

After all you're "just following orders"

It's not a list from the Internet, it's the scab list and it is gospel. The Gospel according to Behnke.

 

[jskibo]

Are you honestly going to sit there and deny the scab list? No, I'm not following orders. I'm standing up for my profession, and stepping on the necks of those who have stepped on my brothers and sisters.

I've been through a strike. My dad went out on strike when I was a kid, and ended up having to work an extra 8 years to get his pension. I've also seen the damage that scabs do to the negotiation process, and how they can drag it out much longer than it should be when people go on strike. Scabs are nothing but thiefs. They are taking money out of your our pockets during the strike, and after the strike.

I always thought the union was the thief taking dues out of pockets? Then again, Kansas was right to work state, so for that short stint it didn't matter

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

It's not a jump seat war. This is why I say what I do about you. It's denying a scab the jump seat. I really don't think you understand the consequences of scabbing. And it's not baseless. You have admitted to not giving a crap if a scab rides your jump seat. Tell me how that's baseless. I'm not going to get into the SKW/XJT relationship any more than I already have other than saying it's Inc. who has created the mess that exists between them.

Scabs are scabs for life. Those consequences of their actions follow them around for the rest of their careers. That includes getting another job, or getting to work. Personally, letting a scab on the jump seat condones their behavior, and I've yet to meet a union rep who not only doesn't feel the same way, but who also wouldn't have my back for denying a scab the jump seat. Likewise, I don't know a single union rep who would condone me letting a scab ride the jump seat. The whole point of a union is unity.

You just don't get it.

It will be a jumpseat war when tomorrow he/she denies me a jumpseat because I denied him. They already wronged the industry and ALPA forgave them. Took them right back in and they are regular dues-paying individuals just like you. In fact, they "stand" next to you (LOL) when it comes to ALPA protections and the so called brothership. If ALPA can't and won't show any disdain or negative action for the scabs, why should you? Or I? ALPA doesn't condone the behavior you are describing, even if you have reps who may be 'okay' with it. Good luck. IMO, you can easily risk a harassment claim by the person you're trying to get-back-at. I would hate to be in that HR meeting.

The whole point of a union is unity.

But that argument also works for them. They'll claim they are regular dues paying members like you and should have the same ALPA resources you have.

Are you honestly going to sit there and deny the scab list? No, I'm not following orders. I'm standing up for my profession, and stepping on the necks of those who have stepped on my brothers and sisters.

I've been through a strike. My dad went out on strike when I was a kid, and ended up having to work an extra 8 years to get his pension. I've also seen the damage that scabs do to the negotiation process, and how they can drag it out much longer than it should be when people go on strike. Scabs are nothing but thiefs. They are taking money out of your our pockets during the strike, and after the strike.

Just curious, which strike did you go through? Comair?

 

[Cptnchia]

I always thought the union was the thief taking dues out of pockets? Then again, Kansas was right to work state, so for that short stint it didn't matter

Only shortsighted people think and believe that. As for right to work, GA is one, but if you don't pay the maintenance fee as a nonmember, you'll be fired from Delta, because it's an agency shop.

 

[Seggy]

Only shortsighted people think and believe that. As for right to work, GA is one, but if you don't pay the maintenance fee as a nonmember, you'll be fired from Delta, because it's an agency shop.

Close.

A state's 'right to work' standing doesn't come into play when dealing with the Railway Labor Act. It is actually a HUGE advantage of the RLA.

 

[Cptnchia]

It will be a jumpseat war when tomorrow he/she denies me a jumpseat because I denied him. They already wronged the industry and ALPA forgave them. Took them right back in and they are regular dues-paying individuals just like you. In fact, they "stand" next to you (LOL) when it comes to ALPA protections and the so called brothership. If ALPA can't and won't show any disdain or negative action for the scabs, why should you? Or I? ALPA doesn't condone the behavior you are describing, even if you have reps who may be 'okay' with it. Good luck. IMO, you can easily risk a harassment claim by the person you're trying to get-back-at. I would hate to be in that HR meeting.


But that argument also works for them. They'll claim they are regular dues paying members like you and should have the same ALPA resources you have.

You're conjoining two issues. There's the CO scabs, who were forgiven by ALPA, and let back in. They had to pay back dues and are considered members in good standing. Not much you can do about it.

Then there are the other scabs still out there, who haven't been forgiven. Those are the ones we're talking about. And again, it's not a Jumpseat war. That takes a concerted effort by a pilot group. You're describing a one off incident that may effect you personally. You're call but I would never ride a scab's Jumpseat. Hell, I took myself off a flight and waited for a later one when, introducing myself to the captain, discovered it was JC Lawton. That dude can burn in Hell, for all I care.

For the record, I did have to allow a scab to jump once. Dude was an Eastern scab, but was now an FAA ASI. No chance to deny him. Funny thing was, as he was deplaning, here comes another FAA ASI, who was a rEAL, who just about beat the ever loving snot out of him. They had an epic, foul vocabulary laced shouting match on the ramp.

 

[Seggy]

I'm just stating the ground-truth that I see out there in the non-121 parts of aviation that I have occupied for the last 25 years or so. Airline guys are pretty steeped in a culture that is very insular and not automatically shared with the reams of GA, 91, 135, military, and other aviators.

I see it another way.

If you want to talk about an insular culture...look how the Alaska Flying Mafia was up in arms that Delta Air Lines (spelled it right!) would DARE attempt to fly into their mystical place called Juneau. The ignorance they displayed how they were befuddled that Delta could pull it off was embarrassing.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Directly, I'm not sure. Indirectly, you bet your ass. Get called to the CP's office for something, and see what help a union rep is if they know you have helped out a scab. When the company comes down on you like a ton of bricks, they'll just sit, and watch. It's really easy to dig your own grave in this industry. And it's even easier not to.

No, they are regular dues paying ALPA members. I don't see how anyone would find out you had a scab jumpseat on your plane, unless your CA or you the FO pull out the "list."

And I'd like to see the union rep who refuses to help a pilot if he's called into the CP office because he let a scab jumpseat. That rep should be recalled (fired) for refusing to protect a non-scab, good-standing, dues-paying, regular ALPA member. You have been elected by the people to do a job... so do that job. Or step down and let someone else do it.

I still don't see what legal grounds you would use to deny someone access to protection that they are paying for with their dues as regular good-standing ALPA members.

 

[MikeD]

You're conjoining two issues. There's the CO scabs, who were forgiven by ALPA, and let back in. They had to pay back dues and are considered members in good standing. Not much you can do about it. .

That's what I was wondering about. These particular guys, forgiven, paid back dues, back in good standing.......but, still appear on the list.

Has that ever created a problem of one of them trying to JS, getting denied because they're on the list [CAL '83], yet arguing that "hey! I'm back in good standing! What do you mean I'm getting denied!". Seems like that could(ve) been a potential problem. Especially with guys who believe the "forgiven, my ass! They're scabs for life!" (an understandble sentiment)?

No, they are regular dues paying ALPA members. I don't see how anyone would find out you had a scab jumpseat on your plane, unless your CA or you the FO pull out the "list."

And I'd like to see the union rep who refuses to help a pilot if he's called into the CP office because he let a scab jumpseat. That rep should be recalled (fired) for refusing to protect a non-scab, good-standing, dues-paying, regular ALPA member. You have been elected by the people to do a job... so do that job. Or step down and let someone else do it.

I still don't see what legal grounds you would use to deny someone access to protection that they are paying for with their dues as regular good-standing ALPA members.

For the bolded, I think the CAL '83 guys are the only ones who would fit that bill, as cptchia mentioned. And the question I had posed out of curiousity, of if that situation ever became an actual issue.

 

[pete2800]

I see it another way.

If you want to talk about an insular culture...look how the Alaska Flying Mafia was up in arms that Delta Air Lines (spelled it right!) would DARE attempt to fly into their mystical place called Juneau. The ignorance they displayed how they were befuddled that Delta could pull it off was embarrassing.

Meh... You kind of missed why people were upset. I think it was more to do with the fact that Delta tried to sue for the right to use proprietary approaches...

No one was befuddled that they could do the flying.

 

[jskibo]

Only shortsighted people think and believe that. As for right to work, GA is one, but if you don't pay the maintenance fee as a nonmember, you'll be fired from Delta, because it's an agency shop.

Only unwillingly covered by SPEEA for a short period of time between management gigs. It could have been free and I wouldn't have joined for the crap deal they signed. Members ended up voting them out after the second pile of trash they negotiated (It was hilarious as both were worse than they had before the union with the exception of a guaranteed $750 raise min for everyone......I would have been embarrassed to get a $750 raise, like I screwed something up real bad to go that low)

I did have to go cover F/A-18 production at McDonnell-Douglas during the 1996 strike. At least Mac was quick to get an injunction on day 3 and move the losers line back after a whole lot of vandalism in the first two days.......I think that one went about 90 days as I recall