AIN/Bob Hoover honoring a scab!

[knot4u]

Lyford did it as a surprise prank at one of these tux-and-tie parties there at VNY, which is par for the course for Chuck if you know him. He's a family friend and quite a personality.

Any idea what year that happened? I've never heard about it, and I would've normally been aware of those types shenanigans.

 

[MikeOH58]

Do you have to be part of the union at an alpa airline?

 

[mshunter]

Do tell, how in the current round of negotiating under the RLA, what picket line was crossed and affected the process of negotiating? The last strike was Spirit and there were two who scabbed and weren't even Spirit employees.

Crossing a picket line, company employee or not, makes you a scab. Anyone crosses the line during this round, and they'll be scabs too. Not really quite sure what you need me to explain here. Informational picketing isn't being on strike, and so far, that's all that's been done. Getting released to strike is not an easy process. I'm not, nor have I referred to crossing a picket line "during this round of negotiations". Not quite sure what you're getting at.

What the was one before, Comair? That had I think 3 scabs. Post Comair strike, it was 9/11 that did the rest of the airlines in, not the scabs. The time frame where it did matter was in the 80s with all the major airline strikes. Today's negotiating environment is totally different for a host of reasons.

First off, I went through training with a few Comair guys. They told great stories about how guys were treated after their strike. They also spoke about how they made sure they'd let people know who the scabs were in an interview.

Second, look at the list I posted. It hasn't been updated since 2004. You're bringing things into this with either little or no relevance. We are talking about scabs here, and how you will be looked at if you scab, and how it has the potential to hurt the CBA process.

Don't get me started on unity when it comes to negotiation. Ask any Spirit pilot today how "unity" is going when they are now in the 2nd year in without a new contract and are putting themselves on the standing available list and constantly putting out fires caused by management (or rather, mismanagement). Or even in my shop, how 25% voted no to ALPA. And even when ALPA passed and going through a merger, almost two dozen (of ~700) haven't even joined ALPA.

And if that was going on during a strike, they'd all be labeled scabs. Rightly so too. I don't think you understand this, at all. I grew up in a union family. There is "putting out fires caused by management" and then their is being a scab. You can't compare the two. They are in two different realms.

As for the not joining the union, that's fine. But don't expect anyone to listen to them when they bitch about the company, stick up for them when they need it, or get help from other guys who are paying union dues. Those situations have a way of working themselves out, and I have yet to see it benefit the guy who didn't join the union. This is an industry that needs unions. We have a very strict set of rules to follow, and are occasionally asked to break those rules, with negative consequences no matter if we do or don't. That's why unions are important.

Now you're putting words in my mouth that I never said. I've stated it above before, I'll state it again: I'm against scabbing, and I would never scab.

You may say you're against it, but your words and actions tell a different story. I really don't think you understand the importance of not crossing the picket line, and the damage it does to those you work with. It only takes a few people crossing to extend a strike into the months long process, instead of the days or weeks long. Why do you think SkyWest has done their damnedest to keep ALPA off property? Why do you think they keep putting the skids on XJT. They want the union shop gone because of their collective bargaining power.


IMO, this is an all or none industry. We're all in this together, or we're not. We don't all have to agree on the pieces of the contract, but we all need to stick together to get the best one. And when you don't stand with me, even after the strike is over by denying that jump seat, or making sure the guy doesn't get hired, you stand against me.

 

[mshunter]

Do you have to be part of the union at an alpa airline?

I know that if you're hired and they are already on property, yes. If they get voted on property while you're already there, I'm not really sure.

 

[Bob Ridpath]

I'm not a pilot, but I am a union member. Rarely over the years, in the areas I frequent, there have been strikes against the local businesses I generally patronize.

If there is picketing, I personally honk (or voice) my support to those walking the line, and shop at a different grocery store or pharmacy.

While others may certainly choose otherwise, I don't cross a picket line for the sake of convenience, routine or immediate need. There are many other available options.

 

[av8tr1]

IMO, this is an all or none industry.

I think that statement right there is the problem. Many people both in and out of the industry see striking pilots as unwilling to actually negotiate. They may claim to be negotiating but if they don't get everything they ask for then they will bring the entire company down.

In 2005 I watched my aunt lose her 30 year pension with United as the "United" pilots union brought the company to its knees for their 28% raise. This poor woman had to go back to work in her 70s.

Its things like that that give the unions a bad name. Once upon a time unions were a necessary and vital resource for industry. Now it's all about greed and usually for the union not its member groups. FFS unions are why low time pilots are paid so poorly. Gotta pay your dues......sounds like something Tony Soprano would say. And those "dues" are after said low time pilot has put in 80K into training and had to live on roman noddles and tuna fish (and tuna fish is a once a week luxury) for a couple of years doing flight instruction and aerial photography.

You guys better get your act together because the new generations are more "Whats in it for me?". Bet in a decade you'll see more "scabs" then non "scabs".

 

[texas_pilot]

And she gave him the diabetus?

His drug test indicated mArijuana, said she put in his food

 

[Hacker15e]

Any idea what year that happened? I've never heard about it, and I would've normally been aware of those types shenanigans.

I'll ask, I'm not sure.

 

[NickH]

His drug test indicated mArijuana, said she put in his food

During his medical?

 

[MikeD]

Crossing a picket line, company employee or not, makes you a scab. Anyone crosses the line during this round, and they'll be scabs too. Not really quite sure what you need me to explain here. Informational picketing isn't being on strike, and so far, that's all that's been done. Getting released to strike is not an easy process. I'm not, nor have I referred to crossing a picket line "during this round of negotiations". Not quite sure what you're getting at..

That's what seemed to be the problem with the recent ABX strike, where ATI pilots were being labeled as scabs for flying supposed struck work, but the strike itself wasn't legally recognized by ALPA, which represented the ATI pilots. Seemed to create a bit of a mess even on this board.

 

[BobDDuck]

In 2005 I watched my aunt lose her 30 year pension with United as the "United" pilots union brought the company to its knees for their 28% raise. This poor woman had to go back to work in her 70s.

What exactly did United Pilot's negotiations (where they didn't even come close to striking) have to do with your aunt losing her pension during BK?

 

[av8tr1]

What exactly did United Pilot's negotiations (where they didn't even come close to striking) have to do with your aunt losing her pension during BK?

My understanding was that the pilots union demanded a 28% raise or something like that in 2000 that was "a" major factor in the company filing for bankruptcy. There were some other issues as well but if the pilots union hadn't struck and demanded a significant raise United likely wouldn't have had to file bankruptcy.

 

[A Life Aloft]

My understanding was that the pilots union demanded a 28% raise or something like that in 2000 that was "a" major factor in the company filing for bankruptcy. There were some other issues as well but if the pilots union hadn't struck and demanded a significant raise United likely wouldn't have had to file bankruptcy.

That is complete and utter fiction and not even close to reality. What strike? There was no strike nor a threat of a strike.

Are you aware of all the pay concessions that the pilots had to endure over the years long before the bk, long before 911, and long before the raise we finally got? Even that raise did not make us whole from what we had lost in pay over the years. DAL pilots got a larger increase in the same time period, btw. Shame on us for expecting our pay to be restored to the levels that existed prior to all the pay cuts and concessions that were taken with much of the pay cuts used to fund the ESOP and that we were promised would happen. Do you know how many pilots were on furlough before the bk and before 2001? If you want to blame an entity for the bk, look for two words. Glenn Tilton. Do you have any idea how many millions he was paid in his salary, stock options and bennies before, during and after the bk? Try 40 plus million in one year alone.

We had the nuts of all the employees ground to sawdust years earlier, (literally threatened the pilots with furloughs and the other workers/employees with lay-offs) cut wages yet again, and made us part owners with stock that became 100% worthless.

Here's a timeline for you:

Dec. 9, 2002 — UAL's United Airlines files for Chapter 11 federal bankruptcy protection in Chicago. It remains the largest bankruptcy filing by an airline and was at the time the sixth-biggest by any U.S. company.
Feb. 13, 2003 — United says it intends to shift 30% of its U.S. capacity to a new low-cost carrier to compete with Southwest Airlines and other discount carriers.
April 21, 2003 — United starts charging for meals on flights.
May 1, 2003 — New labor contracts go into effect reducing labor costs by $2.56 billion annually for six years.
Feb. 12, 2004 — United launches its new Denver-based discount carrier, Ted. (that was Glenn's little brainchild which failed miserably and cost them millions)
June 28, 2004 — United loses third and final try for a government loan guarantee, forcing it to seek new financing.
Aug. 19, 2004 — United says in a bankruptcy filing that it likely will terminate and replace its employee pension plans.
Oct. 6, 2004 — United cuts domestic flight capacity by 12% and increases international capacity 14% amid intensifying discount-carrier competition in U.S. and more lucrative routes internationally.
Nov. 4, 2004 — CEO Glenn Tilton says record-high fuel costs mean United has no choice but to eliminate pensions and cut wages further to gain an additional $2 billion in reductions.
May 10, 2005 — Bankruptcy Judge Eugene Wedoff approves United's plan to terminate employee pensions, clearing the way for the largest corporate-pension default in American history.
July 21, 2005 — United completes second round of negotiated labor cuts in bankruptcy, adding another $700 million in annual labor savings.
Sept. 7, 2005 — United files reorganization plan outlining its intentions for repaying its debts and wiping out its stock. Forecasts nearly $1 billion operating profit in 2006 but based on oil prices falling to $50 a barrel.
Oct. 6, 2005 — United signs off on a $3 billion loan from JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Citigroup Inc. enabling it to exit bankruptcy.
Dec. 30, 2005 — United announces majority of creditors have voted for its reorganization plan.
Jan. 20, 2006 — Reorganization plan approved by bankruptcy court.
Feb. 1, 2006 — United emerging from bankruptcy after three years, 51 days.

During the bk ALL the unions conceded salary and benefit cuts of 30 percent to 40 percent. The work force was reduced from around 110,000 to about 60,000, with many pilots and flight attendants still on furlough. Their work loads and hours also increased without extra benefits. Tilton started hiring a massive amount of third party contractors. He started outsourcing heavy aircraft maintenance, workers who cleaned the planes, ramp workers, security, you name it.

And what else did he do during the three years in bk? Did he build the brand? Did he define the product and give the pax actual decent options? Did he come out with a new marketing plan that worked? No he didn't. There was no real brand, singular identity or organization left. And the hearts and souls of the employees were burned and trampled upon. The bastard shed so many employees at all levels that they couldn't even deal with wx, any types of delays or mx issues. He dumped/sold so much of the existing fleet and stalled the new orders for aircraft that it was impossible to even begin to have any true growth. He jacked around the pax frequent flier program until it was a total POS. Later on, he started shoving far more routes and mainline flying over to United Express clear back in 2009 and 2010.

Yeah the BK was ALPA's and the pilot's fault. Bejebus.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You may say you're against it, but your words and actions tell a different story.

What actions? This is a baseless accusation at best.

I really don't think you understand the importance of not crossing the picket line, and the damage it does to those you work with. It only takes a few people crossing to extend a strike into the months long process, instead of the days or weeks long. Why do you think SkyWest has done their damnedest to keep ALPA off property? Why do you think they keep putting the skids on XJT. They want the union shop gone because of their collective bargaining power.

I understand the importance of not crossing the picket line, which is what scab does. Of course I would never do that. I don't know about Skywest and ASA's situation. Suffice to say, there isn't much management can do if pilots really want to vote in a union. We were the last major to vote in a union because quite frankly, many thought (including me) that we were about to be bought or sold off. ALPA was voted just in time! Mgt could have thrown payraises at us (like they have done at Skywest, historically, has been a very well off regional compared to others), but here it wouldn't have made a difference. We needed ALPA protection for not just the day in/day out of this job for protection, but also M&A scenario protections.

IMO, this is an all or none industry. We're all in this together, or we're not. We don't all have to agree on the pieces of the contract, but we all need to stick together to get the best one.

A little too George-Bush-jr like, but okay, I'm always with the side that wants to get the best contract.

And when you don't stand with me, even after the strike is over by denying that jump seat, or making sure the guy doesn't get hired, you stand against me.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I just don't want to engage in unnecessary jumpseat wars which in the end will only end up hurting you and I.[/QUOTE]

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Do you have to be part of the union at an alpa airline?

Nope!

You can chose to be a non-member who then has to pay a type of "maintenance fee" as per the agency shop provision of the CBA.

Or if your airline votes in ALPA, pilots don't have to sign up for ALPA technically. We still have ~20 / 730 who haven't signed up. Luckily though, union leaders and mgt signed an agency shop LOA that at least forces these guys to pay the maintenance fee (equal to ALPA dues of 1.9%) and also the assessment fee for SLI which is 1.5%.

 

[trafficinsight]

That is complete and utter fiction and not even close to reality. What strike? There was no strike nor a threat of a strike.

Are you aware of all the pay concessions that the pilots had to endure over the years long before the bk, long before 911, and long before the raise we finally got? Even that raise did not make us whole from what we had lost in pay over the years. DAL pilots got a larger increase in the same time period, btw. Shame on us for expecting our pay to be restored to the levels that existed prior to all the pay cuts and concessions that were taken with much of them to fund the ESOP and that we were promised would happen. Do you know how many pilots were on furlough before the bk? If you want to blame an entity for the bk, look for two words. Glenn Tilton. Do you have any idea how many millions he was paid in his salary, stock options and bennies before, during and after the bk? Try 40 plus million in one year alone.

We had the nuts of all the employees ground to sawdust years earlier, (literally threatened the pilots with furloughs and the other workers/employees with lay-offs) cut wages yet again, and made us part owners with stock that became 100% worthless.

Here's a timeline for you:

Dec. 9, 2002 — UAL's United Airlines files for Chapter 11 federal bankruptcy protection in Chicago. It remains the largest bankruptcy filing by an airline and was at the time the sixth-biggest by any U.S. company.
Feb. 13, 2003 — United says it intends to shift 30% of its U.S. capacity to a new low-cost carrier to compete with Southwest Airlines and other discount carriers.
April 21, 2003 — United starts charging for meals on flights.
May 1, 2003 — New labor contracts go into effect reducing labor costs by $2.56 billion annually for six years.
Feb. 12, 2004 — United launches its new Denver-based discount carrier, Ted. (that was Glenn's little brainchild which failed miserably and cost them millions)
June 28, 2004 — United loses third and final try for a government loan guarantee, forcing it to seek new financing.
Aug. 19, 2004 — United says in a bankruptcy filing that it likely will terminate and replace its employee pension plans.
Oct. 6, 2004 — United cuts domestic flight capacity by 12% and increases international capacity 14% amid intensifying discount-carrier competition in U.S. and more lucrative routes internationally.
Nov. 4, 2004 — CEO Glenn Tilton says record-high fuel costs mean United has no choice but to eliminate pensions and cut wages further to gain an additional $2 billion in reductions.
May 10, 2005 — Bankruptcy Judge Eugene Wedoff approves United's plan to terminate employee pensions, clearing the way for the largest corporate-pension default in American history.
July 21, 2005 — United completes second round of negotiated labor cuts in bankruptcy, adding another $700 million in annual labor savings.
Sept. 7, 2005 — United files reorganization plan outlining its intentions for repaying its debts and wiping out its stock. Forecasts nearly $1 billion operating profit in 2006 but based on oil prices falling to $50 a barrel.
Oct. 6, 2005 — United signs off on a $3 billion loan from JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Citigroup Inc. enabling it to exit bankruptcy.
Dec. 30, 2005 — United announces majority of creditors have voted for its reorganization plan.
Jan. 20, 2006 — Reorganization plan approved by bankruptcy court.
Feb. 1, 2006 — United emerging from bankruptcy after three years, 51 days.

During the bk ALL the unions conceded salary and benefit cuts of 30 percent to 40 percent. The work force was reduced from around 110,000 to about 60,000, with many pilots and flight attendants still on furlough. Their work loads and hours also increased without extra benefits. Tilton started hiring a massive amount of third party contractors. He started outsourcing heavy aircraft maintenance, workers who cleaned the planes, ramp workers, security, you name it.

And what else did he do during the three years in bk? Did he build the brand? Did he define the product and give the pax actual decent options? Did he come out with a new marketing plan that worked? No he didn't. There was no real brand, singular identity or organization left. And the hearts and souls of the employees were burned and trampled upon. The bastard shed so many employees at all levels that they couldn't even deal with wx, any types of delays or mx issues. He dumped/sold so much of the existing fleet and stalled the new orders for aircraft that it was impossible to even begin to have any true growth. He jacked around the pax frequent flier program until it was a total POS. Later on, he started shoving far more routes and mainline flying over to United Express clear back in 2009 and 2010.

Yeah the BK was ALPA's and the pilot's fault. Bejebus.

July 2003: I visit the engine shop at SFO on a tour as part of my A&P school and learn the meaning of "hostile workplace."

 

[BobDDuck]

My understanding was that the pilots union demanded a 28% raise or something like that in 2000 that was "a" major factor in the company filing for bankruptcy. There were some other issues as well but if the pilots union hadn't struck and demanded a significant raise United likely wouldn't have had to file bankruptcy.

The "other" issues would be 911 and terrible management. There was no strike as @A Life Aloft pointed out.

 

[hook_dupin]

The "other" issues would be 911 and terrible management. There was no strike as @A Life Aloft pointed out.

Also, industry structure at the time was horrible and United was over-levered.

Here's a reading from The Sage:

The worst sort of business is one that grows rapidly, requires significant capital to engender the growth, and then earns little or no money. Think airlines. Here a durable competitive advantage has proven elusive ever since the days of the Wright Brothers. Indeed, if a farsighted capitalist had been present at Kitty Hawk, he would have done his successors a huge favor by shooting Orville down.

The airline industry’s demand for capital ever since that first flight has been insatiable. Investors have poured money into a bottomless pit, attracted by growth when they should have been repelled by it. And I, to my shame, participated in this foolishness when I had Berkshire buy U.S. Air preferred stock in 1989. As the ink was drying on our check, the company went into a tailspin, and before long our preferred dividend was no longer being paid. But we then got very lucky. In one of the recurrent, but always misguided, bursts of optimism for airlines, we were actually able to sell our shares in 1998 for a hefty gain. In the decade following our sale, the company went bankrupt. Twice.

 

[Cptnchia]

I just don't want to engage in unnecessary jumpseat wars which in the end will only end up hurting you and I.

[/QUOTE]

Denying a scab a Jumpseat will NEVER end up starting a Jumpseat war. Only other scabs would ever attempt to defend a scab.

 

[MikeOH58]

Why would a pilot group vote down a union? Didn't Jetblue say no to ALPA twice before voting for it?