Instructing frustrations

[tgrayson]

These students can be just outright frustrating.

I ran the content of your post by an Indian friend of mine, who is very Americanized. Here are his comments:

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I think some cultural factors in play here, but there could be much more. For instance, I would have a hard time believing all Indian students behave as she described. While some short term visitors tend to have a "don't -care" mind set, some of it may have to do with the perception as well.

But then there is a huge difference in basic etiquettes between the two countries. Many simple and harmless gestures can be misinterpreted.

They act like it's a burden to have to come to school and fly.

I assume somebody else is paying for their classes?

Their utter disrespect for me. They really have a hard time with a female being in an authority position over them.

Hard to justify, since most of us went to schools with majority of teachers being females. Also you see a heavy female population in work environments too. One thing I have noticed, though rarely, is that some have hard time dealing with people way younger than them.

There are so many cultural differences. They don't understand the concept of waiting their turn

I agree to some extent on this point. Again, this is somewhat common in India, partly because an average queue is easily ten times the length you see here -- whether it is a bank, post office or a railway station. People tend to learn to live without basic formalities in public and that shows. But that is no excuse to behave the same everywhere.

Personally, even now I feel irritated when people in front of me does chit-chat with a teller when there are people waiting.

I can't tell you how many times they've asked the instructors to just forge something or lie about hours so they didn't end up owing any more money….

Seems like a bit exaggerated to me. Obviously people are people – I don't think being an Indian has anything to do with it.

And they messes they leave in the planes and classrooms

Perhaps environment she provides or her attitude towards them has something to do with promoting this behavior. I would be surprised to find if these things has anything to do with Indian culture, even remotely.

 

[USMCmech]

One key factor is where these students come from in their own society.

Almost every single one comes from a wealthy and/or privilged family in their country. As such, you see more than a few spoiled 19 year old brats. They are away from their famlies for the first time and it shows. Obviously this is not true in all cases, but most of the bad apples show these traits.


My main source of fustration was teaching them to make their own decisions. Most of these students come from a very rigid society, where they are told what to do, and when to do it. All my foreign students constantly ask me what they should do, I imeadiatley look out the window at the pretty sceenery.

When I start with any student I tell them that after I have shown them what to do, I will allow them to make their own mistakes. I will only speek up if they are about to do something dangerous. I have flown for 20 minutes with a student totaly lost because I wouldn't let him use the GPS (he wasn't my student, mine never got to use the GPS).

 

[NotCoolEnufToFly]

I ran the content of your post by an Indian friend of mine, who is very Americanized. Here are his comments:

=================================================


I think some cultural factors in play here, but there could be much more. For instance, I would have a hard time believing all Indian students behave as she described. While some short term visitors tend to have a "don't -care" mind set, some of it may have to do with the perception as well.

But then there is a huge difference in basic etiquettes between the two countries. Many simple and harmless gestures can be misinterpreted.

I assume somebody else is paying for their classes?

Hard to justify, since most of us went to schools with majority of teachers being females. Also you see a heavy female population in work environments too. One thing I have noticed, though rarely, is that some have hard time dealing with people way younger than them.

I agree to some extent on this point. Again, this is somewhat common in India, partly because an average queue is easily ten times the length you see here -- whether it is a bank, post office or a railway station. People tend to learn to live without basic formalities in public and that shows. But that is no excuse to behave the same everywhere.

Personally, even now I feel irritated when people in front of me does chit-chat with a teller when there are people waiting.

Seems like a bit exaggerated to me. Obviously people are people – I don't think being an Indian has anything to do with it.

Perhaps environment she provides or her attitude towards them has something to do with promoting this behavior. I would be surprised to find if these things has anything to do with Indian culture, even remotely.

Well, much like your friend who assumes he knows me so well, my boss is Indian... from India, although much Americanized himself. Yes the students do have a problem with my gender. It is apparent to me when not only has my boss, who again, is from India told me that that is a problem there, but when they don't like my answer the always reply with "Okay well then I'll ask ______" (insert any male employee's name here) and when the fiance of the company's owner, who does all the finances and is the only one who deals with the students accounts, is skipped over and they go straight to the boss with their concerns because he is a man, knowing that he will only refer them back to her. I'm not one to cry discrimination. I typically don't care, but it's extremely evident. Oh and I haven't been younger than one of them yet.

Secondly, I will take a picture of the mess they leave next time. Oliver flew one of the planes after a group of them got back from a cross country and it looked like they had used the back of it for a trashcan... dozens of wrappers and cans. They spill coffee in the breakroom and instead of wiping it up or letting me know so I can take care of it, they walk it everywhere. They had to make a rule in the new building that drinks and food cannot be taken outside the breakroom because of how nasty these kids are.

Exaggerated???? You've got to be kidding me. It's almost a daily basis that these students ask their instructors to bend some FAA rule or do themselves because they want to get home sooner. It's not hearsay, I am there when it happens. Yesterday as a matter of fact, one of our Indian students griped at his instructor for nearly 30 mins to lie on his 8710 about him having 10hrs in the RG so that he could go for his commercial checkride. His point was that by the time he finished with the checkride and got back he would have the 10hrs but also wouldn't owe anymore money. After the instructor nicely tried to tell him several times why he wouldn't do that, he finally said, you know what I don't care. To which the student replied, "So you don't care about your students?"

My attitude towards them is only a result of their behavior. When I first got here and took this job, I was taking them to lunch, running them by the bank, on my own time, and trying to do everything I could to make them comfortable here, only after they were so disrespectful so many times and I had to have one of them suspended for several weeks for trying to kiss me, grope me and all kinds of other inappropriate things, did I form this attitude towards them.

Anyways, I think I would be defensive about Americans if someone was bashing them too, so I can understand this guy's reaction.

I didn't ever say that it was ONLY Indians, and I did mention that there are huge cutural differences which I credit a lot of this behavior to, but it's no excuse. By the way, if my complaints are so unwarrented, why are so many people agreeing with them? Interesting. I'd like to know how long your Americanized Indian friend actually lived in India and how many international students he's taught?!

Also, it really pisses me off when people give Americans a hard time for not being tolerant, we are one of the most tolerant contries in this world. Go to another country and say you don't believe in their God, disrespect their government or proclaim to be gay and see what happens. Just because they are here and adjusting to our culture doesn't mean, I've adjusted to theirs. They came to America, therefore need to try to adjust more to our culture, just like if I moved there I would try to adjust to their cultural differences.

 

[splash]

Well, isn't there a reg that says, "must be able to read, write, speak, and understand English?

Where do you draw the line?

Teaching is an all around thing. It's figuring out how the student learns with out getting frustrated. It's a hard job and not for everyone in aviation needing flight time. There is a communication barrier between everyone and some more than others.

I remember that "go around" issue myself. I was trying to figure out "why" we where going around in that first 4 seconds. I was a little high but the runway was very lengthly for a full stop landing. Nothing worse than a yelling flight instructor. :banghead:

 

[tgrayson]

if my complaints are so unwarranted, why are so many people agreeing with them?

He didn't say that.

He did suggest the bulk of it doesn't have much to do with being Indian. I'm inclined to agree. My own flight school recently began importing a lot of Indian students, so I've been seeing much of the same behavior. Although I don't train them, I've discussed their behavior with other instructors and the flight school owner, and I've also watched how they interact with each other and the instructors.

A good part of it I suspect is that we advertise to them cheap and fast training. Is it any wonder that that's all they're interested in when they get here?

I also suspect the difficulty in bonding across cultures creates an "us vs them" mentality on both sides.

 

[NotCoolEnufToFly]

Oh and I do want to add, that I never said ALL of them were like that. Yes we do have some that are motivated, respectful and have picked up on some cultural differences and have tried to comply a little more, by being patient and respectful. I'm not rude to the students, I'm don't hate them, and they seem to like me just fine, however, my point is that it's very very frustrating. It's like I adopted 20 5yr olds sometimes.

 

[NotCoolEnufToFly]

He didn't say that.

He did suggest the bulk of it doesn't have much to do with being Indian. I'm inclined to agree. My own flight school recently began importing a lot of Indian students, so I've been seeing much of the same behavior. Although I don't train them, I've discussed their behavior with other instructors and the flight school owner, and I've also watched how they interact with each other and the instructors.

A good part of it I suspect is that we advertise to them cheap and fast training. Is it any wonder that that's all they're interested in when they get here?

I also suspect the difficulty in bonding across cultures creates an "us vs them" mentality on both sides.

Taylor, I never said it was because they were Indian either. I actually said I was sure that what Angel was facing was probably similiar stuff and they are Chinese?!?! I don't think it has to do with specifically India or China or whatever. I think it has to do with them coming from the other side of the world. The cultural differences are vast, and just as they don't become American overnight just because they came to school here, doesn't mean I pick up Eastern culture overnight just because they are here. It's frustrating, extremely so, and something that, no matter what anyone says, I haven't seen out of one of our local students yet. Our locals students show no problems in showing up for their flights, they have no issues throwing away their trash, they've never been caught breaking into my office to get into the schools files and they surely haven't ever tried to grab my boobs from behind while trying to kiss my neck while I'm pregnant and working.

 

[tgrayson]

I don't think it has to do with specifically India or China or whatever. I think it has to do with them coming from the other side of the world.

I find it odd that Indians and Chinese would exhibit the same problematic behavior, when the cultures are so different. This seems to suggest that something other than culture is at work here.

I don't think that Indians or Chinese are inherently slobs, have an inherent disrespect for the law, or are incapable of studying. So if they act this way, there may be some other situational or interpersonal forces at work.

From watching them at our school, I have the impression they lack respect for the organization and behave much the way children would if they lacked respect for their parents. I think this is a universal phenomenon.

Could this be controlled? Yes, I think so, with a strong enough organization, but I've only seen weak structure at the flight schools I'm familiar with. And flight schools have given up quite a bit of power from the beginning by promising quickie and cheapie ratings. That creates a buyer's market, rather than a seller's.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

tgrayson, your friend has not been exposed on a daily basis to what we have been subjected to. I have a ton of respect for you from your posts on jetcareers, so don't take this the wrong way, but if you don't have first hand experience with this subject, you should probably leave your opinion out.

This is probably going to sound horrible, but the truth hurts sometimes, so I will just go ahead and say it:

I believe a majority of the Indian population that are coming to America to get their flight training are coming from the bottom rungs of their society. I talked to one of my older Indian students (29 years old) about this problem, and he confirmed my assumption.

The problem students seem to have a few things in common: They are in their early teens, male, couldn't/wouldn't go to college, and aren't motivated to fly. They always try to "get one over" on you when you aren't looking. Falsifying logbooks, having other people fly for them and logging it in their logbook, sneaking in passengers on solo flights, submitting chargebacks for credit card charges after they leave, general disrespect for regulations in general, cheating on knowledge tests, hack our scheduling software, falsifying their Indian documents, constant no-show-no-calls, getting DUIs and RUNNING FROM THE POLICE.

These are just a few incidents off the top of my head, and I haven't even gotten in to the frustration of teaching them to fly.

With that said, there are a few that have always been respectful, always been on time, and have always been prepared to for the flight. It is sad that they get grouped in with the type of people NotCoolEnufToFly and I are talking about, but the fact of the matter is that the majority of them act just as she described them.

Some may see this rant and ask why I have stuck with it. I am in a position where I can pick and chose my students, fly with private, instrument, and multi students, and I leave all of my frustration at work. This is still the best job I have had to date and still enjoy doing it.

 

[NotCoolEnufToFly]

I find it odd that Indians and Chinese would exhibit the same problematic behavior, when the cultures are so different. This seems to suggest that something other than culture is at work here.

I don't think that Indians or Chinese are inherently slobs, have an inherent disrespect for the law, or are incapable of studying. So if they act this way, there may be some other situational or interpersonal forces at work.

And you're right. Maybe my ignorance. I only work with Indian students. I don't work with any other foreign students other than the occasional African student or something. I didn't specifically say which problems he was dealing with only that I assumed they were probably similar. I based that assumption on the fact that although they are two different cultures, they are from the same continent and are both from the East. Just as the European American culture here is different from the diverse cultures in Europe yet oddly similar and familiar in many ways.

Okay I'm out. I have a Dr's appointment. My post was never meant to offend anyone. It's the truth of what I deal with everyday at work. I never said I hate my job or the students. The thread was a thread to express frustration about intercultral flight training, which is the world I work in everyday. I was just venting. I've never treated any one of the students with disrespect even though they have treated me that way on numerous occasions. I like them just fine, they're always teaching us new words and telling us something about their culture. They make Indian food and bring it up here for all to try. I never said I hate these kids, but it does bring a lot of frustration, and has even in the past brought me to tears. Again, take it at face value or assume away about me... it doesn't matter, I haven't said anything but fact.

 

[tgrayson]

if you don't have first hand experience with this subject, you should probably leave your opinion out.

White Anglo-Saxon Protestant Americans have often said that regarding other ethnic or cultural groups, and Southerners used that as a tool of oppression for a few centuries. Eventually, those who didn't know what they were talking about won the day.

Although I haven't trained Indian students, I have worked with Indians in other contexts and don't note any of the characteristics being described, hence I'm skeptical these are Indian characteristics.

In spite of that, I am not challenging your observations, which you have exclusive access to, but your interpretation of them. I'm suggesting that the situation, rather than ethnicity, may play the predominant role in the problems you encounter in the training environment. I don't think your first-hand experience has necessarily provided you with the means to refute (or confirm) that, since you can't separate the two effects in your environment.

This strikes me as a version of what social psychologists call the Fundamental Attribution Error:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

The difference between your point of view and mine is profound: I believe that I could solve the problem by changing the environment, whereas you're stuck with what you have, because you can't change your students' cultural backgrounds.

 

[cfii2007]

Hey guys...

...despite only having instructed for a year, I'm getting pretty burnt out from instructing primary (PPL) students. More specifically, I'm getting burnt out from teaching PPL contract students. I never thought I'd reach this point but I can honestly say I really need a break from this type of teaching.

What began as enjoyable has become a nightmare for me teaching. Don't get me wrong, I put forth all of my effort and patience. I don't want to sound like some dramatic pansy CFI. However, when my students or stage check students cannot understand a simple question or command such as, "start preflighting the airplane," we have some issues. (the student responded, "ah no, I don't study preflight." )

What worries me the most is their inability to communicate effectively while in the airplane. I have a lot more patience on the ground than I do in the air. After all, there is no pause button while being up there. Besides, we're up in the air to learn how to fly, not to be learning a new English word such as "aiming."

Though I'm generalizing by making this statement, it has been my experience that American students don't go through the same troubles as some of these students do.

I'm so sick of them always counting their training hours with no regards to their actual progress. My student finally soloed at 26 hours and completed the first block of training at 41 hours. He decided to switch instructors because he said he had "too many hours."

Most of the ones whom I've spoken to don't quite have the love for aviation. The majority say they're here because flying planes in China is "a really good job."

Anyway, I can go on forever, but thought I might feel better if I heard other stories from other instructors around here.

Outside of the contract training, I've been enjoying this a lot. It's just when I have to explain what words like book, aiming, forecast, that it gets really troublesome.

I swear I'm not being dramatic, or maybe I am...who knows...you tell me.

Nope....not dramatic at all. I'm burned out too. Most of these students aren't really here for the love of aviation, many come from wealthy families and have SERIOUS SJS....for Boeings....not CRJ's.

And I can't even tell you how many students think that once hitting 40.1 hours in their logbook makes them ready for a checkride. Riiiiiiiiiight......

 

[cfii2007]

I disagree completely. I'm not even an instructor but I work at a flight school and practically deal with the same frustrations. We have a LARGE international population at this school, however we cater to Indians not Chinese. I'm sure it's much the same though. I don't think it has anything to do with a passion for what you're doing. These students can be just outright frustrating.

Some of the things I deal with:
Their utter disrespect for me. They really have a hard time with a female being in an authority position over them.
The smells... oh god, you can't even imagine how horrible some of the B.O. is. (And try dealing with it while pregnant, I've literally had to run to the bathroom after they left my office a few times in fear that my lunch may make a second appearance)
There are so many cultural differences. They don't understand the concept of waiting their turn. If I'm helping one of them, the others don't patiently wait or come back, instead they but in and all start rambling off what they want at once until I can no longer even hear the person I was originally waiting on.
They break into my office to get their files, which although I've explained to them a million times that they are not actually THEIR files, they belong to the school, they still don't seem to understand.
Things disappear around here at an alarming rate. And I'm not talking about pens and papertowels, I'm talking expensive electrical equipment.
Oh they also think that the instructors and I are willing to put our jobs and the instructors licenses at risk to make their lives a little easier. Seriously, I can't tell you how many times they've asked the instructors to just forge something or lie about hours so they didn't end up owing any more money.
And they messes they leave in the planes and classrooms... OMG. You wouldn't believe me if I told you, and it does absolutely NO good to ask them to throw their trash away.

I honestly could go on and on, and don't even get me started telling specific stories. These aren't problems we typically have from the local students. I don't know if these are the same kind of problems Angel deals with on a daily basis but one thing he mentioned that I definitely see here is that they are just more interested in getting the hours and getting home than actually learning what they are doing. They act like it's a burden to have to come to school and fly. I don't even think some of them like it, it's just a good job when they get back home, and those people are tough to teach.

Isn't instructing fun???????????????

 

[Goonie]

Although I haven't trained Indian students, I have worked with Indians in other contexts and don't note any of the characteristics being described, hence I'm skeptical these are Indian characteristics.

.

No need to be skeptical, all these characteristics are very true. Talk to Indians that have lived in America for a long time. They will talk the most trash about their own countrymen.

MOST of the indians will shake your hand and stab you in the back at same time. They are very shady people when it comes to certain things. ....by their own admission

 

[kellwolf]

I think it might have something to do with the age group. Early teens? Come over to Starbucks in Southaven on a Friday night. You'll weep for the future of humanity.

There's a communication barrier because of language differences. There's no getting around that. I had an Indian FO the other night, and I was constantly having to ask him to repeat what he said b/c his accent was so thick. ATC was doing the same thing. Couple that with the fact that he was soft spoken anyway, and it wasn't the best flight I've had.

Aviation is expensive. Wouldn't surprise me if there were some American students falsifying logbooks to save some $$$.

 

[tgrayson]

They are very shady people when it comes to certain things. ....by their own admission

So are Americans.

MOST of the indians will shake your hand and stab you in the back at same time.

And no, I don't believe that.

 

[SteveC]

I'm with tgrayson on this one. He's spot on.

 

[USMCmech]

I wouldn't single out a single ethnic group, but I will say that they are all difficult. Unless you have worked with a lot of these students, you really don't know what you are talking about.

I have taught students from Mexico, and India. Also I know numerous CFIs who worked with other nationalities, and the story is mostly the same. I honestly don't know why these students are generally more difficult, but they are. Everyone I have spoken to has pointed out numerous plausible reasons, and I doubt that it is just one thing. Language, culture, age, maturity, and a host of other factors create a very difficult set of students.

These students from overseas have the normal range of intelligence, and aptitude for flying. Yet, in almost every case it take at least twice as long as students from the USA. I have flown with several dedicated and talanted foreign students, and these people were a delight to fly with. However the bad actions of some of their countrymen have tried my patince worse than anything else (and I've got 2 small children).


If any of you CFIs out there think we are all being racist and narowminded, by all means try it yourself. Perhaps you will succed without going slightly crazy like the rest of us.

 

[NotCoolEnufToFly]

I'm sorry, were we not PC enough for you? BTW, I'm not white, I'm caucasian.

I've worked with Indians before on a different level too. We had almost a whole floor at my last job of highly intelligent Indian computer geniuses. I also had a good friend who was engaged to a very nice Indian man for a while. He was clean, smart as hell, and probably spoke better English and had better manners than me. For the longest time I thought that country was full of nothing but super smart people. What I'm saying is that for some reason flight training in the States seems to bring the worst of the worst. I don't know what it is. I only report fact when it comes to this. Everything I said has been 100% true and you can take it or leave it, but it's really easy for you guys to sit back and be all self righteous, practically calling us all racists when you're not the ones getting your hands dirty. Work with them for three months, and then we'll care more about your opinion. For now though, it comes across as nothing but your attempt to show everyone how PC you can be.

Oh and I'll say it again. I'm not trying to single out Indians, it's just that they are the only ones besides Americans that I work with and between the two there is a huge difference. I can't speak about Mexicans or Chinese or any other because I DON'T know. If they all acted like that though, you better believe I wouldn't sugar coat it. I can be nice and tolerant of anyone but that doesn't mean I have to let them walk all over me in fear of not being politically correct.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

White Anglo-Saxon Protestant Americans have often said that regarding other ethnic or cultural groups, and Southerners used that as a tool of oppression for a few centuries. Eventually, those who didn't know what they were talking about won the day.

Although I haven't trained Indian students, I have worked with Indians in other contexts and don't note any of the characteristics being described, hence I'm skeptical these are Indian characteristics.

In spite of that, I am not challenging your observations, which you have exclusive access to, but your interpretation of them. I'm suggesting that the situation, rather than ethnicity, may play the predominant role in the problems you encounter in the training environment. I don't think your first-hand experience has necessarily provided you with the means to refute (or confirm) that, since you can't separate the two effects in your environment.

This strikes me as a version of what social psychologists call the Fundamental Attribution Error:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

The difference between your point of view and mine is profound: I believe that I could solve the problem by changing the environment, whereas you're stuck with what you have, because you can't change your students' cultural backgrounds.

I would usually tend to agree with your assessment, but we have students from Mexico, Africa, the Maldives, Italy, Cape Verde, etc...all of the same age group which I described, but they don't have nearly the same amount of problems.

I don't think these are "Indian" problems. I think they are specific to the groups that are coming for flight training.