Instructing frustrations

Steve and Taylor,

No disrespect but y'all have no clue what your talking about on this subject.

:D

Probably won't be the last time I'm told that, either.

Cheers!

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I'm curious. Why would you prefer to describe yourself as Caucasian? The only people I see that use that term are the race-baiters and the ones who have a racial chip on their shoulder.

Why dredge up a racial term that hasn't been common since the 60's. We don't use the corresponding terms for African American or Asian anymore, so what is the point of bring up a racial term that has been in such disuse?
Oh my god...are you serious? Please, tell me your kidding! That was the point. The point is that if you're going to be so PC, you better not miss anything. I don't care what you call me...I don't get offended. I could care less about being PC, but for those of you who do and leave out truth and skip over fact so that you don't offend anyone...I'm caucasian. If you don't get it nowM I'm sorry.
 
Speaking of Mexicans ... :D

I apologize for the quality, I took this picture this morning while driving to work ... :D I'm still LMAO... :yup:
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I have to say that I experienced some of these things with Indian students. X-Forces and I had a short coversation about it at last years NJC. I believe it's a combination of their culture and them being young. Some have attempted to bribe me which I took as an insult. Bribing is something that some have to do in India. I even hear that the only way that they can do they're certicate conversions in any reasonable amount of time (when they get back to India) is to bribe a few government officials. The odor is there, but thats a cultural thing. Some of them don't like to clean up after themselves, but there are a lot of teens that don't do that. That kind of reminded me of some of my dorm mates my freshman year of college. :) All in all, it's not of them. It varied from student to student.

I also have to say that some of my closest friends were my students. I had a lot of fun with some of those guys and still keep in touch with them. Some of them developed a real love for flying and I made darn good aviators out of them.:)
 
I find some of the posts in this thread to be incredibly narrow-minded. How anyone can take the actions of a couple of hundred flight students as being representative of a country with a population of over 1 billion amazes me.

I think there are a number of issues that are at least partly responsible for the issues mentioned above. Firstly, these kids (and the majority of them are kids) come from the 'upper echelons' of Indian society. The average GDP per person in India is less than $3000 per annum, it is only the upper classes that could afford to send their kids to the states for flight training. I think that these kids probably come from a background where things just get done for them, and they expect that to continue for the rest of their lives (not too dissimilar to some of the trust fund babies over here). Another issue is that they generally come from fairly strict, hardworking families, and when they are given all the freedom and independence of being away from home some go a little crazy, and go out and buy a brand new car, drink a little too much, get DUIs etc etc. I also agree that a lot, but not all, do not have a passion for aviation.

Secondly, and I think this is a big part of the problem, is that schools like Skymates advertise 'Professional' courses based on unrealistic minimum hours, with unachievable costs and timelines. When these students realize that it is going to take them a lot longer and cost them a lot more than they were initially told, they get frustrated - as anyone would - and it is then that they fall back on the assumption that things will just happen for them. They are also are under a lot of pressure to get things done from home. Another issue with lies in the hands of the flight schools is that they tend to take on far too many students than they have the capacity, in terms of aircraft, instructors and MX, and thus the students struggle to fly as frequently as they should, and it takes them longer to achieve their ratings which leads to all the undesirable behavior that has been mentioned.

Also, I don't know if this is the case but it certainly sounds as if it is, the schools should be very wary of turning a blind eye to such illegal practices as fraudulent 8710s and logbooks etc, as it probably helps to encourage people to continue to do it if they don't think they'll be any real recourse.

I don't disagree that all of the activities mentioned are disgraceful, but I also think that implying that it is entirely a racial issue is also disgraceful and very short-sighted.
 
Guys, try not to take this thread into racial BS...if someone says "I work with bunch of Klingons and they stink" that DOESN'T mean that all Klingons stink and that the group represents EVERYONE from there. It just means that someone works with bunch of Klingons and they stink...DUH!!!
there are some quick facts about the group notcoolenuf is working with:

1. These kids are spoiled as #### and demand too much attention
2. They do stink :)
3. They are more than willing to break every FAR rule just to get their #### and get outta here.
4. There is a freaking super dooper cultural difference that is really hard to overcome sometimes
and my personal favorite...their food sucks ... :D

That's it...happy flying! :D
 
Guys, try not to take this thread into racial BS...if someone says "I work with bunch of Klingons and they stink" that DOESN'T mean that all Klingons stink and that the group represents EVERYONE from there. It just means that someone works with bunch of Klingons and they stink...DUH!!!
there are some quick facts about the group notcoolenuf is working with:

1. These kids are spoiled as #### and demand too much attention
2. They do stink :)
3. They are more than willing to break every FAR rule just to get their #### and get outta here.
4. There is a freaking super dooper cultural difference that is really hard to overcome sometimes
and my personal favorite...their food sucks ... :D

That's it...happy flying! :D


Exactly. Why do people look at truth as racist if it fits some sort of stereotype? If I said the black lady living next to us listens to rap is that racist? No, because she does! If I said the couple in the apartment building next to us from the country are missing some teeth, does that make me racist? No, because they are! Just because it fits the stereotype doesn't suddenly make it MY problem!

I never said I hated all Indians. I have friends of all ethnic backgrounds and all walks of life. We were simply stating some of the issues we deal with everyday out of the Indian students. It's not our fault if it fits into some sort of 'racist' stereotype.
 
Also, I don't know if this is the case but it certainly sounds as if it is, the schools should be very wary of turning a blind eye to such illegal practices as fraudulent 8710s and logbooks etc, as it probably helps to encourage people to continue to do it if they don't think they'll be any real recourse.

You're assuming things. We said the students do this, did anyone ever say that they are allowed or that their school doesn't do anything to correct it? I know at my school, they break a rule and they are suspended for several weeks, meaning the longer they have to stay here, which is the last thing most of them want. They want to get back home and fly those jets and get paid more than they don't want to show up for their flight lessons. Don't assume things.
 
Secondly, and I think this is a big part of the problem, is that schools like Skymates advertise 'Professional' courses based on unrealistic minimum hours, with unachievable costs and timelines. When these students realize that it is going to take them a lot longer and cost them a lot more than they were initially told, they get frustrated - as anyone would - and it is then that they fall back on the assumption that things will just happen for them. They are also are under a lot of pressure to get things done from home.

Please tell me what is unrealistic about the course at skymates? We tell them 8-12 months, which is easily attainable. We tell the estimated costs that are over what they are spending, on average. The few motivated ones get out of here with way less than we quote them, and can get it done in 6 months.

The majority of them do not act as if they are under any pressure at all.

Please, if you do not have experience with this subject, you should not offer an opinion.
 
I was just reading into the training done in Europe the other day. Lufthansa, the biggest European airline actually has people going through 4 years of engineering degree school and they dont even touch the airplane until their third year...it costs something like 80k Euros and it's probably too much, but anyway, I'm trying to say that all these 6 months zero to hero courses here in the US are a BS...I read it as "get rich quick scheme" for the schools. It's all about big all mighty Dollar, who cares if those Jackasses go back to India and crash an A380. Oh well, maybe Boeing does :D .The European airlines wouldn't even touch someone like that with a ten foot pole. Those guys over there aint playing. Anyway, my drift is...it should be a serious business and respectable profession training pilots, not a joke.
 
Wow, didn't think this thread would go long. Thanks for the replies.

Sounds like you love aviation but don't quite have the love for teaching. Another caught by the CFI time building pay your dues trap:panic:. By all means keep plugging away. Try to look on the bright side and say, "I taught this guy English words he didn't know and soloed him at 26 hours". That is more than a fair statement. Keep it positive. No, I don't have a CFI. Enjoy it the best you can.
...reading comprehension. I don't think I ever said instructing was the problem. We're talking major communication problems, here.

Instructing foreigners can be difficult. I have been doing it full time for over a year and a half. I would shoot myself if I only did private pilot training, though. Usually, the instrument is much easier to teach, because it is very cut and dry.

Do you have a CFII? If so, teach more instrument!
I do have my CFII. Surprisingly, it's been difficult to get instrument students, lately. It's summer time and most of the American students are gone for summer break at the school. The only ones left are the contract students and they're mostly student pilots. I think the PPL training has been burning me out this summer. That's all I've done, and they've been contract students. The previous semesters, I've had a nice variety of students. (PPL, IR, CFII)

You're not being dramatic.

I have yet to meet any CFI who dosen't get VERY fustrated by teaching foreign students. Heck I get agrivated just hearing them on the radio. I taught Indian students for 4 months and was toast by the end. I will not take another foreign student again, peroid. I simply don't need the agrivation.
I'm almost starting to feel the same way...and I think I may be in the same boat. I don't think I'll have the right attitude towards a new foreign student anymore if I were to take one again (they all have the communication barrier). Of course, that's not fair to the student and I realize that which is probably why I won't take one again.
I'm initial-CFI qualified, so I'm sure I'll be doing a lot of that training come this fall. It'll be nice again to have someone understand "start preflighting the airplane, I'll meet you out there."

Not all teaching has to take a toll. There are ups and downs with everything, but contract training has it's own set of challenges.

Angel - my advice: see if there is anything else around so that you can continue on your journey without having all the headache.
Ditto, and being completely honest, I haven't had any headaches with the American students so far. Sure there are some local students with poor attitudes, but that's mainly because they're just taking the course forcefully as a prerequisite to their major.

I don't plan on switching from instructing, I like it so far. However, I may reconsider taking a contract student ever again.

They want to finish the unit and move onto the next unit. On top of that they could not think outside the box. Everything had to be black and white, and set up exactly as before.

I soloed my first student at 26 hours and all I heard from the fourth flight on was when am I going to solo and he couldn't even fly straight and level or remember what TPA is for the airport.

Oh for the smell, Axe really neutralizes the oder...so while they are doing the preflight...remember to spray down the interior of the aircraft for a nice fresh smell.

Oh and has anybody else gotten the "Yes sir, Yes ma'am" response to when they do something wrong in the airplane? I finally snapped one day and told the "student" just to stop "STOP Yes sir'ing me, and JUST DO IT!" I should have Nike logo or something tattooed on my forehead.
Whoa, EXACTLY right! They don't think outside the box.
Actually, I just remembered my student soloed at 32 hours. Like yours, my student was also asking me from the tenth hour on as to when he was going to solo because his "other classmates have soloed already." He was finally ready at 32 hours.

As far as the smell.............OH MAN! I had a Chinese student who wore the SAME SAME SAME SAME SAME t-shirt, sweater, and sweatpants for a month and a half straight after first arriving into the US. I haven't gotten sick in an airplane for a loooooong time now, but that smell was so nasty it made me almost puke.

As far as the "yes, sir," I agree they do it very often hehe. It doesn't bother me so much that they call me "sir." It's more of the "yes" they always respond to anything you ask them. I don't ask them any more "yes/no" questions anymore. I'll ask them a question that requires a full response, otherwise I won't know if they actually understood the topic or not.

"Hi, how are you Steve?" (yeah they choose their own American names, and no, Steve wasn't any of my students' name)
"Yes."

"You didn't like the flight today?"
"Yes"

"Yes, like? or No, like?"
"Ah, yes, I like."

I had to ask him every time if he understood and it was time consuming and inefficient.
"Yes."
The one time it got dangerous was when I would tell him to go around and he wouldn't! I told him "When I say go around, we go around right then. Not 2 seconds later; right then." He was a pre solo student and I was tasked to get him ready for his stage check by Friday, I can tell you it ain't gonna happen, he just needs more work.
Good for you on not falling victim to the timeline pressures. That's how all instructors should be. I see, too often, instructors putting in students for their stages when they're not even ready for them just to meet timeline requirements. It's ridiculous. They're not safe.
One thing bothered me though. I try to not touch the controls at all with primary students. I let them feel their mistakes and correct for them with my verbal cueing. However this didn't work today. He just didn't understand what I was saying and wouldn't ask for clarification so I would have to nudge the controls this way and that way after saying it twice with no response. I hate doing that but is this common? It was the only choice because like someone else said above, there is no pause button.
I've noticed that a lot of them like to be babied around. It's really difficult with those students because they expect you to cue them all the time. The problem is a lot of them have a poor mentality. I like the students to handle the plane like a pilot, not a passenger. I think some of them feel like they're "co-pilots" in training. (contract students) I don't know if it's a culture issue.

Some folks learn best with their kinesthetic system. You say, "go around" and they have to translate that to their language, remember what it means, remember what actions to take, then think through those actions, finally, implement those actions. If you say "go-around" and nudge the controls, the entire translation process is not needed, the sound with the touch communicates directly and like Pavlov's dog, they are able to respond more immediately. With these learners, touch is an essential part of their process, thus don't be afraid or ashamed to touch (know your culture first! In some places, that'll make you married!) as you're refraining from touching will only extend the time it takes to master whatever skill.
True, but on a sidenote, I think this can hinder their ability to take action without prompt. By always nudging, they develop this need for a nudge to determine when to go around. The simple phrase, "go around," is the equivalent of what a pet dog would do if you say, "sit." It doesn't require translation, it's only a trigger to an action, IMO.

Teaching is an all around thing. It's figuring out how the student learns with out getting frustrated. It's a hard job and not for everyone in aviation needing flight time. There is a communication barrier between everyone and some more than others.

I remember that "go around" issue myself. I was trying to figure out "why" we where going around in that first 4 seconds. I was a little high but the runway was very lengthly for a full stop landing. Nothing worse than a yelling flight instructor. :banghead:
I really hope you aspire to become a flight instructor, you will learn a lot, I'm sure.
 
Originally Posted by NotCoolEnufToFly
If I said the couple in the apartment building next to us from the country are missing some teeth, does that make me racist?

I would have said that they were from Arkansas. ;) | :laff:
 
oh yeah - i forgot this one.

A student, on his long solo cross country, decided he didn't want to actually do it. So the foreign student flies to an airport 5 miles from the base airport, ties the aircraft to a TREE, with the engine running to put 2.whatever on the hobbs.

Needless to say, one of the locals knew the plane and called the school to let them know what whas going on. They found the student having lunch, plane unattended.

The reason they got from the student was that he felt that a VFR cross country would not benefit him as flying for *insert Country name here* Air would be getting ATC instructions on their IFR flight plan.

This student was pre-private.

I can't elieve I forgt that story.
 
oh yeah - i forgot this one.

A student, on his long solo cross country, decided he didn't want to actually do it. So the foreign student flies to an airport 5 miles from the base airport, ties the aircraft to a TREE, with the engine running to put 2.whatever on the hobbs.

Needless to say, one of the locals knew the plane and called the school to let them know what whas going on. They found the student having lunch, plane unattended.

The reason they got from the student was that he felt that a VFR cross country would not benefit him as flying for *insert Country name here* Air would be getting ATC instructions on their IFR flight plan.

This student was pre-private.

I can't elieve I forgt that story.
Whoa, that story is almost hard to believe! Just WOW!
 
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