Instructing frustrations

Instructing foreigners can be difficult. I have been doing it full time for over a year and a half. I would shoot myself if I only did private pilot training, though. Usually, the instrument is much easier to teach, because it is very cut and dry.

Do you have a CFII? If so, teach more instrument!


Yeah!! I totally agree. The CFI-I is well worth it. I am currently working on my MEI just to teach in something other than a Skyhawk. I have been instructing for about 10 months and it was starting to wear on me too. I have lately been taking a little more time off and it has really helped. Keep at it!
 
I'm with tgrayson on this one. He's spot on.

I'm sorry but no he's not.

I have been teaching Indian students for over 2 years now so I know what I'm talking about.

We even have an Indian instructor that has lived here for 10 years now and he is embarased all the time for the students. He even tells them he's mexican so they wont try to include him in all their shady schemes, and they have a bunch of them.
 
I have been teaching Indian students for over 2 years now so I know what I'm talking about.

You're not really reading what I have written.

I fully accept you see what you see, but I do not accept it occurs because they are Indian. As long as you think it does, you won't be able to improve the situation and you may be contributing to the problem. There is a saying: "Accuse, and it shall be committed." In other words, your expectations have a role in determining the behavior of others.
 
You're not really reading what I have written.

I fully accept you see what you see, but I do not accept it occurs because they are Indian. As long as you think it does, you won't be able to improve the situation and you may be contributing to the problem. There is a saying: "Accuse, and it shall be committed." In other words, your expectations have a role in determining the behavior of others.

Typically I agree with this. I normally believe that if you expect the worst out of people then that's what you'll get. I mean, why if you already have your mind made up about them, should they strive to be any more. However, when I first started working at this school, I have absolutely no preconcieved notions of what working with so many Indian students would be like. I practically bent over backwards for them. I took them to lunch with me, used MY time, off the clock to run them to the bank and various other places so they wouldn't have to take a cab later. I let them use my cell phone to make calls... but EVERY freaking time I got burnt. I did all these things for them and then they break into my desk and steal things I'm responsible for, they have sexually harrassed me (which is not something I have EVER accused anyone of ever before. I can handle dirty jokes and even some rude jesters but practically trying to keep me and room to try and kiss my neck and grab my boobs on numerous occasions is NOT acceptable) Personally, I'm not going to speak for everyone here, I don't feel their actions are a direct result of my attitude towards them, no, I think it's the opposite. My attitude towards them is based on their actions. I don't judge them all based on how the students of the past acted either. We have a couple that I've never had to get on to, who show up everyday for school, who seem to be totally motivated. But I feel as though I've done everything I can to make their stay pleasant and it's no longer my responsibility to make sure they behave. NONE of our students are under 18, I know it's still young, but they are adults and it's about time to act like it.
 
You're not really reading what I have written.

I fully accept you see what you see, but I do not accept it occurs because they are Indian. As long as you think it does, you won't be able to improve the situation and you may be contributing to the problem. There is a saying: "Accuse, and it shall be committed." In other words, your expectations have a role in determining the behavior of others.

Eh, I think the Indian students are a product of their environment. They live in a culture that everything is bartered and nothing has a set price. Bribes, greased palms and corrupt government employees are out in the open. You have enough money in India you can just buy an airline job. What is shady to us is just normal to them.

I'm not trying to improve my situation at all, I've accepted it and deal with it. They know how I feel about it, I will tell it to their face. I like the students a lot, they are all for the most part real nice and make me laugh on a daily basis. No matter how much I like them it doesn't change the fact that their shady SOB's. I just have to keep a watchful eye on them at all times.
 
I have taught students from Mexico, and India. Also I know numerous CFIs who worked with other nationalities, and the story is mostly the same.

That rather supports my point, because it highlights it's not "their" problem, but some other social interaction issue with non-Americans coming to train on American soil. No doubt we're contributing equally to the problem.

This situation needs the attention of an anthropologist.
 
:confused:

It appears to me that many of you are not fully comprehending what tgrayson is writing.

The people here with experience are explaining the experiences that they have had with their students. Tgrayson does not appear to be disagreeing with anything that you guys are saying, he is simply noting that the things that you experience may well have deeper causes than just the fact that they are of a certain nationality. Then you all yell louder "but we did TOO experience what we told you!!!"

Sorry taylor. I'm looks to me like most of the message is getting lost.

:(
 
tgrayson,

You have to keep in mind that these students(indians) are far different than most students when it comes to their reason for flying. To them this is just a job and only a job...a very high paying job in India. They will never fly a GA plane again after the get their commercial certificate. They will be going straight into an Airbus/Boeing. This is all temporary knowledge for them, and they know it. They want as many shortcuts as they can to finish their training.They have never even heard of Orville or Wilbur before in their life or have more than likely have never been on an airplane before in their life before they came here for training. Most of them freely admit they don't even like flying, they would pencil whip every hour if given the chance. Hell, they even try to bribe DPE's to just give them a license and not do any check rides. They don't care if they fail a check ride 5 times if it means getting done faster.

These are the things CFI's deal with..zero motivation from their students. It is very hard for a green CFI.

I'm not here to bash them in any way, but I am telling you the truth....I promise. There are a select few who are very good students that will work their ass off for you.
 
:confused:

It appears to me that many of you are not fully comprehending what tgrayson is writing.

The people here with experience are explaining the experiences that they have had with their students. Tgrayson does not appear to be disagreeing with anything that you guys are saying, he is simply noting that the things that you experience may well have deeper causes than just the fact that they are of a certain nationality. Then you all yell louder "but we did TOO experience what we told you!!!"

Sorry taylor. I'm looks to me like most of the message is getting lost.

:(

No, I fully understand what he is saying and I am trying to tell him it IS a nationality thing.
 
I have worked with my fair share of our Indian friends in the computer field for many years now. Average wage earners between $60-$140k. I can attest to the fact that the majority of these cats are some of the best ones out there doing IT type of work. For the most part, good character, great work ethic, polite, punctual, and really on top of their game. I have learned quite a bit about the Indian culture over the course of the years too, having worked very tightly with them in this regard.

I started my flight training where RyanMcG and mojo teach. They were both there the day I first started flying. Mojo was actually my very first instructor, and he dumped me so that he could load up his schedule with Indian students. And yes, this did rub me the wrong way. ;) But that is OK. Mojo is finally marrying his partner for life (wink wink) in California later this year, so I am happy that he has finally found true love.

The Indian students that attend this flight school are no different from the Indian students that I have given a few dozen hours of dual for myself, at a flight school just up the road. I have never in my life, other than some enlisted folks in the Navy, came across a clumping of people that are as messed up. I really don't understand it. From having to provide a general use can of deodorant in the bathroom, to posting signs up around the school stating that each student must have taken a shower in the last 24 hours in order to do their lesson. I actually find that sitting around this flight school and people watching is quite the free entertainment that I would probably pay good money to receive in most other circumstances. Who knows, maybe it is a generational thing with these young Indian students. But, the Indian students that I have observed coming to the US for flight training are != to the their countrymen that I have worked with in the computer field. The caliber of Indian people that I have found in the computer field are equivalent to most upper blue collar to middle white collar US equivalent. The caliber of Indian students (at least 80% of them) measure right along the lines of a clique of high school drop out thugs that scheme and scam whatever system they are hooked up in.

Say what you will. Until you have experienced it for yourself, you really don't know. I am just glad that I don't have to earn my living by teaching them full-time. God knows that I would already be in jail for choking a few of them to death.
 
That rather supports my point, because it highlights it's not "their" problem, but some other social interaction issue with non-Americans coming to train on American soil. No doubt we're contributing equally to the problem.

I have no doubt that we are doing things to contribute to the problem. For starters advertising courses based on the minimum hours, on a schedule that is completely rediculus. I saw a lot of very poor customer service by the management of the flight school where I worked. I really felt for these students, and cared deeply about giving them quality training.

However none of that matters.

I have to train these students to the FAA standard, regardless of their background. The standards put out in the PTS are non negotiable. In fact my standards were much higher than many other CFIs. My consistant experiance was that students from develping countries require twice the amount of flight time to achive those standards. Along the way I became highly fustrated trying to overcome the language and cultural barriers.

As I said before, I will not subject myself to that much stress again. I don't need the money or flight time. I now have the ability to pick and choose my students, and only fly with the one I wish to.


Oh yeah, this is hardly a new phenomon. I spoke to a retired USAf pilot at Flight Safety in Vero Beach. He told me tales of teaching Iranian pilots back in the 70s. Almost the exact same stories.
 
:confused:

It appears to me that many of you are not fully comprehending what tgrayson is writing.

The people here with experience are explaining the experiences that they have had with their students. Tgrayson does not appear to be disagreeing with anything that you guys are saying, he is simply noting that the things that you experience may well have deeper causes than just the fact that they are of a certain nationality. Then you all yell louder "but we did TOO experience what we told you!!!"

Sorry taylor. I'm looks to me like most of the message is getting lost.

:(

I disagree. I am on the tgrayson bandwagon with the best of 'em. His insights into the regs and in the CFI arena are...as you say.... 'spot on.'

However, I think tgrayson is comparing his experiences in the computer field in working with Indian people to what is being said about the Indian students that are coming here for flight training. And I also believe that his belief system is being contradicted about the quality of people.

If my reference base was solely from what I have seen in the computer field in working and interacting with Indian people, I would probably take the same stance. However, I have seen the other side of the coin with my own eyes. And, what is being compared here is a true case of comparing apples with oranges.

I speak from experience from both sides of the coin. :D
 
I'm sorry, were we not PC enough for you? BTW, I'm not white, I'm caucasian.
I'm curious. Why would you prefer to describe yourself as Caucasian? The only people I see that use that term are the race-baiters and the ones who have a racial chip on their shoulder.

Why dredge up a racial term that hasn't been common since the 60's. We don't use the corresponding terms for African American or Asian anymore, so what is the point of bring up a racial term that has been in such disuse?
 
No, I fully understand what he is saying and I am trying to tell him it IS a nationality thing.

:confused:

Doesn't seem that Chewie's description matches your diagnosis. There is more than just nationality at play, otherwise the IT Indians that he describes, and the individuals that tgrayson talks about, and the numerous Indian nationals that I know, would also fit into the mold of the students that you describe.

More than just nationality in play here. The factors, whatever they may be, tend towards stacking a whole bunch of similar individuals into your (and others) flight school. Those factors are greater than just what country the students come from.

I haven't a clue what those factors are, but I recognize that tgrayson has also seen the incongruous descriptions of Indians at flight schools versus Indians in other walks of life here in the US. It would be an interesting study to determine what those factors are, don't you think?

(edit to add)

Chewie, I think you see what tgrayson is trying to say. Many of the posts here appeared to be saying "because I have experienced these bad things with all of the Indian students, it must be because they are Indian". Some others of us on the other hand are saying "that's interesting, we have experience with Indians outside of the flight training environment and have not had the same experience. Maybe the *cause* of the problem is not simply becuase they are Indian".

I hope people can see the difference there. Nobody is arguing that you guys haven't experienced what you've experienced. That would be kind of silly, don't you think? We are just standing at a little further distance and saying "we see some other data points that point towards causes different than just nationality".

<shrug>
 
I started my flight training where RyanMcG and mojo teach. They were both there the day I first started flying. Mojo was actually my very first instructor, and he dumped me so that he could load up his schedule with Indian students. And yes, this did rub me the wrong way. ;)

If I remember correctly, I told you up front that I would be able to fly with you when you were just flying part time, but when you wanted to be a full time student, I couldn't fly with you as much as you wanted.

:confused:

Doesn't seem that Chewie's description matches your diagnosis. There is more than just nationality at play, otherwise the IT Indians that he describes, and the individuals that tgrayson talks about, and the numerous Indian nationals that I know, would also fit into the mold of the students that you describe.

More than just nationality in play here. The factors, whatever they may be, tend towards stacking a whole bunch of similar individuals into your (and others) flight school. Those factors are greater than just what country the students come from.

I haven't a clue what those factors are, but I recognize that tgrayson has also seen the incongruous descriptions of Indians at flight schools versus Indians in other walks of life here in the US. It would be an interesting study to determine what those factors are, don't you think?

(edit to add)

Chewie, I think you see what tgrayson is trying to say. Many of the posts here appeared to be saying "because I have experienced these bad things with all of the Indian students, it must be because they are Indian". Some others of us on the other hand are saying "that's interesting, we have experience with Indians outside of the flight training environment and have not had the same experience. Maybe the *cause* of the problem is not simply becuase they are Indian".

I hope people can see the difference there. Nobody is arguing that you guys haven't experienced what you've experienced. That would be kind of silly, don't you think? We are just standing at a little further distance and saying "we see some other data points that point towards causes different than just nationality".

<shrug>

I can't speak for others, but this is what I am saying:

I know that the guys we get aren't representative of their people as a whole. I DO know that they are a PRODUCT of the environment in which they were raised. If we didn't have OTHER foreigners in the same age group that acted COMPLETELY different, then I wouldn't make this assumption. The Indians that come here for flight training have been exhibiting this behavior for the year and a half that I have been instructing, and obviously it is this way across the US, judging from others' posts here and discussions with other schools.

For me, it seemed as if tgrayson's post said this:

"I talked to an Indian friend of mine, and he says you are wrong." Specifically this line: "I think some cultural factors in play here, but there could be much more. For instance, I would have a hard time believing all Indian students behave as she described." Obviously, it is not ALL of them, but it is a great majority.

This one bothered me as well. He quoted Notcoolenuf's post about them trying to forge and lie about logbooks/fees.:

"Seems like a bit exaggerated to me. Obviously people are people – I don't think being an Indian has anything to do with it."

This is the quote I have a biggest problem with. He has NO IDEA what we have seen with OUR OWN EYES. There are bad apples in every group, they are NOTORIOUS for this, specifically.

Again, we have students from other countries to compare them with. It seems to be specifically the Indian ones.

This is probably the last post I am going to add to this thread. I vented, said my peace, and will let it go. You guys have your opinions, and they won't change until you experience the problems first hand.
 
These IT guys you use as examples have been in the states a while. They have Been "Americanized". A good friend of mine is a Indian and he told me when the Indians first came too watch out for them and their shady ass schemes. He calls and we laugh about all the ######## they try to pull.

Steve and Taylor,

No disrespect but y'all have no clue what your talking about on this subject.
 
You guys have your opinions, and they won't change until you experience the problems first hand.

I don't form opinions based solely on my own experience; if I did, the world would be flat. ;)
 
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