Strapped for pilots, Republic asks partners to reduce flights

[JustinS]

From an outside perspective of someone who isn't flying 121 but tries to keep up with the industry drama, I'm lead to think the only way for things to get better long-term for guys starting 121 careers at the regionals is for several of them to go under. A lot harder to play musical airplanes when there isn't much competition to do so, and perhaps if this were to happen and the pilot groups increased their strength(along with pay raises and what), major airline partners may find it much more economical to just take back a chunk of the regional flying. Short term, lots of people on the streets, some will get hosed big time and leave the career, but for those who do make it and those who enter after them, it will be a better place. I have personal friends at the majority of regionals out there and obviously I don't want to see them on the streets, however, I wonder what would have happened if say PSA took the initial Eagle stance and just allowed the airline to be shut down and others followed. Short term, lots of negativity. But if a few years from now only the operationally expensive regionals with decent contracts were left standing and people didn't flock to any alter-ego or new-entry regionals with rock-bottom pay that are started up, what do you guys think would happen? Just curious.

Agreed. I think it would be more cost effective if ONE airline was really ONE airline and not a conglomerate of up to 10 airlines. There is a lot of duplicity of upper management positions, HR departments, payroll, training, etc. etc. I'm not sure how much of a savings it would be, but I think it could be substantial among other things. Airline corporations are money driven however, and money talks. For some (or maybe most) airlines it doesn't seem they care about the passenger just the passenger's money. Until money talks, I think mainlines are going to continue their regional addiction to the very end.

 

[🦈💜]

Like so many other things, the airline industry is a harbinger of issues that will come into full bloom for other parts of the economy down the road.
...
Socialism? Hardly. "Fair price for hassle involved" is nothing but capitalism. Complaining about the price of pilots, houses, cars or even the tea in china means you want someone else to step in and put their fat finger on the scale...which IS NOT the "free market".

If that's what people want, fine, but man up and admit it. I don't mind people working the system, but at least fess up that's what you're doing. Intellectual dishonesty is one of my big peeves.

You, sir, I love.

-Fox

 

[Blackhawk]

Again, some of you don't get it. The industry has changed. Regional airlines need pilots to fly the airplanes. Say a regional with strong financials sits back and watches another regional go under. What happens to that pilot pool? They go to the four winds. This pilot pool is an asset. A year ago? No. Today, however this pilot pool is something other regionals want. Just look at how they are poaching pilots from each other.
The worst thing you can do in this industry is to drive by looking through the rear view mirror. Things are different today.

 

[Tommay85]

Thing is, 121 mainline seems to currently prefer military(that should stay) and previous 121 and it seems 121 jet. Everyone that's ever made this switch knows it doesn't matter, AT ALL.

I think the ONLY reason regionals even have the crap staffing they do today is because of this. They should have died years ago, but most(myself included), didn't realize there's MUCH higher paying jobs outside of the regionals when you're low time. There's a rhetoric that you're a hack if you don't go 121 immediately though. It is true though. Currently, you have to go 121 if you want to fly 121. Apparently...

Many voted with their feet in the beginning, but are currently sitting in their current position, ignored and in a golden handcuffs situation. My most humble opinion of course

 

[ChasenSFO]

Honestly, this is exactly what needs to happen IMO. It scares the piss out of me. But this is what needs to happen. And the regional ship jumping that's happening right now isn't helping things, AT ALL. IMO, it's no different than voting in concessions.

I figure with all these lateral moves so many of my friends are making anyway starting all over, might as well shut them down before they go all Mesa and get new contracts everytime they're on their death bed and never go away. Staffing these places for quick upgrades is great for career advancement and I'd probably be tempted to do the same thing, but in the long run, that's keeping bottom feeder airlines with bad or no contracts afloat. When the music stops, majors aren't hiring and may even be furloughing, these guys are comfy in the left seat when the upgrades freeze but all they've done is helped to secure a future for a crappy regional where people will now be stuck at the bottom of the list on endless reserve for low pay and the game of musical planes and and "Comair II" will start up again. It's a vicious cycle which I hope is better in a few years when I'm ready for 121.

Again, some of you don't get it. The industry has changed. Regional airlines need pilots to fly the airplanes. Say a regional with strong financials sits back and watches another regional go under. What happens to that pilot pool? They go to the four winds. This pilot pool is an asset. A year ago? No. Today, however this pilot pool is something other regionals want. Just look at how they are poaching pilots from each other.
The worst thing you can do in this industry is to drive by looking through the rear view mirror. Things are different today.

Exactly why now more than ever, pilots have the opportunity to vote with their feet and go to the better places like Penair, Horizon, Compass, ect. and leave the "Yeah, 3 years of your life will suck but then you'll have loads of TPIC and a better life!" regionals to rot. I know with the economic and career pressures on the individuals involved this is highly unlikely, but the end game is the only game that matters.

 

[Boris Badenov]

There are bigger (and more linked) brains than ours sitting around right now figuring out how to continue the whipsaw. This notion that it will all be candy canes and rainbows from here on out is music to their ears. And they'll always be better at it than we are because they're A) Organized but more importantly B) Share a common purpose in a way that we, when you get right down to it, don't.

In any case, it's always in their best interest if we spend our time jumping from one ship to another and hoping it floats rather than trying to make the one we're already on stay dry. The perverse thing is that it is often not in YOUR or MY personal interest to do so. And round and round we go.

 

[Polar742]

Like so many other things, the airline industry is a harbinger of issues that will come into full bloom for other parts of the economy down the road.

Put simply, people are tired of being jacked around and worked to death. Back in the day, you worked for BigCo, you got paid, decent time off, a nice retirement and a no hassle heath care plan. In return, you gave your best to the company.

Since the 80's, the US has been on a productivity tear...and what's that mean? People are working harder on a per unit basis. They have to save for their own retirement, and pay a FAR larger share of the health care "benefit". In fact, rather than a expense to be managed (which helped to keep costs in check), many "benefits" are now profit centers...for someone, which means transferring and increasing the cost to employees is a GOAL.

And people are tired of it. And getting burned out. Better to be a plumber, turning a wrench for your cousin, doing your own thing in the company van, than answering to 7 bosses and filling out TPS reports.

Put simply, the cost/reward ratio is way out of whack, and not getting better anytime soon. Henry knew that to get an economy to support his cars, you needed people who could afford the product. That ideal has long since gone.

Socialism? Hardly. "Fair price for hassle involved" is nothing but capitalism. Complaining about the price of pilots, houses, cars or even the tea in china means you want someone else to step in and put their fat finger on the scale...which IS NOT the "free market".

If that's what people want, fine, but man up and admit it. I don't mind people working the system, but at least fess up that's what you're doing. Intellectual dishonesty is one of my big peeves.

Richman

Perfect!

Great post!

 

[derg]

You, sir, I love.

-Fox

He's my union rep. GEEET YOWER OWN!

 

[mshunter]

I figure with all these lateral moves so many of my friends are making anyway starting all over, might as well shut them down before they go all Mesa and get new contracts everytime they're on their death bed and never go away. Staffing these places for quick upgrades is great for career advancement and I'd probably be tempted to do the same thing, but in the long run, that's keeping bottom feeder airlines with bad or no contracts afloat. When the music stops, majors aren't hiring and may even be furloughing, these guys are comfy in the left seat when the upgrades freeze but all they've done is helped to secure a future for a crappy regional where people will now be stuck at the bottom of the list on endless reserve for low pay and the game of musical planes and and "Comair II" will start up again. It's a vicious cycle which I hope is better in a few years when I'm ready for 121.


Exactly why now more than ever, pilots have the opportunity to vote with their feet and go to the better places like Penair, Horizon, Compass, ect. and leave the "Yeah, 3 years of your life will suck but then you'll have loads of TPIC and a better life!" regionals to rot. I know with the economic and career pressures on the individuals involved this is highly unlikely, but the end game is the only game that matters.

As stated to me, from the United jump seater recently about "lateral" moves,

"So you get hired here, and then Delta or American calls, and they have projected upgrade times less than us. Are you going to leave for them too?"

He said it looks bad on a resume. I have to agree with him on that point.

 

[Cptnchia]

As stated to me, from the United jump seater recently about "lateral" moves,

"So you get hired here, and then Delta or American calls, and they have projected upgrade times less than us. Are you going to leave for them too?"

He said it looks bad on a resume. I have to agree with him on that point.

Yet it is happening.

 

[derg]

As stated to me, from the United jump seater recently about "lateral" moves,

"So you get hired here, and then Delta or American calls, and they have projected upgrade times less than us. Are you going to leave for them too?"

He said it looks bad on a resume. I have to agree with him on that point.

Old paradigm.

 

[Boris Badenov]

He said it looks bad on a resume. I have to agree with him on that point.

It looks self-interested, certainly. Is that bad? Eh, those are certainly the rules by which our Betters play. I don't see any substantive difference between myself and any other locus of Interest. I always keep my Word, for a myriad of reasons, both ethical and practical, but essentially because it's Good Bidness. Past that, though? I think it's been demonstrated beyond the dream of contradiction that, in the 21st century, one had best look out for themselves. This goes both for corporations and people. In a certain way, it's liberating...zero confusion about "loyalty", what it means, how far it goes, etc etc.

But if you think that I'm not going to Better-Deal you when I've made no commitment otherwise? Well, you're a Sucker, like pilots have been for the last 30 years. Live by the Sword, etc etc.

 

[Polar742]

As stated to me, from the United jump seater recently about "lateral" moves,

"So you get hired here, and then Delta or American calls, and they have projected upgrade times less than us. Are you going to leave for them too?"

He said it looks bad on a resume. I have to agree with him on that point.

What year was he hired at United? Unless it was in the last couple years or he's directly involved in hiring, he has no idea.

It's no different than here. You can ask me about what we think is great and awesome on a resume here, and I've got no idea. I have even hooked a couple buds up to get the call, but have no idea what the Resume Picker 6.0 wants this week.

 

[derg]

Five years ago I would have scoffed at lateral moves in the airline business.

And then fairly recently, it increasingly makes a lot of sense in some circumstances.

 

[derg]

Some.

 

[Polar742]

Five years ago I would have scoffed at lateral moves in the airline business.

And then fairly recently, it increasingly makes a lot of sense in some circumstances.

...and the always sneaky "One forgets it's a cynical and cyclical industry when they're on the upswing"

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

As stated to me, from the United jump seater recently about "lateral" moves,

"So you get hired here, and then Delta or American calls, and they have projected upgrade times less than us. Are you going to leave for them too?"

He said it looks bad on a resume. I have to agree with him on that point.

I think that, that is an opinion only. I can't speak with authority on the topic. But the stated goal in regional flying is to do your time. Get your PIC, and get out. If you stay at Eagle for 8-10 years sitting on the right side of the jet. When you could have made other smarter moves, I think that would be far more of a hindrance, than a positive to explain, should one in that example ever get a mainline interview. I think mainline wants to see more of a go getter type flying one of their planes.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Mainline wants to see what mainline wants to see this week. Chasing what phantasms "mainline" is interested in is a great way to wind up vesting fully in your 401(k) at Home Depot. Again, the tea leaves are rigged, my friends. Fly airplanes, make money, have a life you can stomach. Believing that "deserve" has anything to do with it is only slightly more stupid than making every decision based upon some theoretical future wherein everything will be perfect because you finally got a bunch of hotels on "Boardwalk"/hired at whatever uber-carrier you've been dreaming of since you were pooping your Pampers. You don't know what's going to happen, and you can't control it, even as smart as I know each and every one of you to be. Embrace it.

 

[poser765]

Yeah, what is there to be loyal to? We regional FOs are fighting for peanuts...sometimes literally. A major airline is a career finisher. It's the end game. When you get there more often than not you retire there. Regional carriers operate on a fundamentally different philosophy. We don't want to stay there for the long term and the carriers themselves don't want us to.

In a segment of the industry where we have to struggle to make ends meet I don't see anything wrong with making lateral moves or job hoping in order to provide more for you and your family. I would hope mainline hr people would be able to recognize that. When you are fighting for peanuts...you have to do what you can in order to get MORE peanuts.

 

[Boris Badenov]

A major airline is a career finisher. It's the end game.

This, too, can change. Mind you, I don't think it will, at least not in the immediate future, but everything is always on the table. That anything is "safe" is the most pernicious illusion of all.