BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
You're about to be in for the very rude awakening that lots of new captains have, when you discover that as an FO you were way more active/engaged/helpful, than many of the other FOs.
What trends are you seeing in the people going from 1500 to a major?
- Thread starter Rosstafari
- Start date
You're about to be in for the very rude awakening that lots of new captains have, when you discover that as an FO you were way more active/engaged/helpful, than many of the other FOs.
Preach.
This is completely self-aggrandizing but I honestly feel that I never realized how good of an FO I was until I upgraded to captain.
Approaching the gate, no marshaller…
"Ok, I'm going to roll to a stop in about 20 feet"
"K"
"Can you tell ground we're blocking the ramp for a sec?"
"Huh?" puts phone down, reluctantly picks up the mic.
"I guess I'll do the PA to tell the passengers to remain seated"
"Cool"
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Well I dunno maybe? I think I did a good job as an FO and I got some kudos along the way during the last 5 years at my major regional. I'm not the worlds greatest pilot or anything but I feel like I do a pretty good job of mentorship and team building. I'm still very much an idealist as I actually haven't even done any OE as PIC yet. However, I feel like it's my job as PIC to get the best out of the FO. It's what I do as a coach for athletes: get in their head and mentor/support them being better than they are now.
Who knows maybe I'll suck at it...
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
Sat in the jumpseat the other day. The FO is older than me (I’m pretty old) and is on his phone the whole time. They have a busted APU and need to do an air start. We get delayed for a mx issue in the back. Still on his phone. Ready for push/huffer start, fumbles through a few manuals on the iPad, settles on the FOM, can’t find the air start checklist. CA suggests the AOM, which you know, is aircraft specific, and then he finds it.
I’m no sky god and make my fair share of mistakes, but dude, do the bare minimum and get the checklist out an hour ago when you’re waiting for mx.
It’s kind of sad how low the bar is for achieving the bare minimum outcome, and we’re struggling to do that.
I’m no sky god and make my fair share of mistakes, but dude, do the bare minimum and get the checklist out an hour ago when you’re waiting for mx.
It’s kind of sad how low the bar is for achieving the bare minimum outcome, and we’re struggling to do that.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I'm confused a bit. I said something about growing orange and other citrus fruits, and you responded with something about tambourine manufacturing.
I'll try again.
If you set stuff up for your captains, you were most likely a proactive and engaged FO.
The only FO behavior you regularly saw when you were an FO was your own.
Now that you are upgrading you are assuming (fairly) that almost all other FOs are as proactive and engaged as you were.
Narrator: But they aren't.
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
I've only been in the left seat for about 9 months but I agree with this. I too struggle with how to deal with it. Ultimately I've been settling on servant leadership. It doesn't matter who does the work as long as it gets done.
So I do show up around the same time as the FO. I do my job, and when I'm done I review theirs. If they haven't done something that I would have liked (like inserting an anticipated arrival runway to complete the STAR), I'll just do it myself and let them know. "Hey I just added a runway at XYZ". Usually after the 3rd or 4th leg of me doing that they get the idea and start doing it themselves, which I appreciate.
I'm not in the business of lecturing FOs on how I think they should set up the cockpit, but I do like it set up a certain way. And now I'm in a position where I can have it that way (even if it means doing it myself). A little bit anal? Maybe so. But every skipper has his/her little quirks. At least I recognize that this is one of mine.
So I do show up around the same time as the FO. I do my job, and when I'm done I review theirs. If they haven't done something that I would have liked (like inserting an anticipated arrival runway to complete the STAR), I'll just do it myself and let them know. "Hey I just added a runway at XYZ". Usually after the 3rd or 4th leg of me doing that they get the idea and start doing it themselves, which I appreciate.
I'm not in the business of lecturing FOs on how I think they should set up the cockpit, but I do like it set up a certain way. And now I'm in a position where I can have it that way (even if it means doing it myself). A little bit anal? Maybe so. But every skipper has his/her little quirks. At least I recognize that this is one of mine.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
In retrospect, we as a group were really, really bad about that.
AS completely changed the landscape - and for the better.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
There's also a limit to that. I see FOs hit FPV on my side, and VSD up on my side for departure. Thank you, but no thank you. Then I have to deselect FPV myself and unless we're departing a terrain threat airport or a SID with many altitude restrictions, I don't want the VSD for departures usually. I like to see the full size map in a closer range for TCAS targets on departure.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
And one of the most random 737 FO what the eff moment:
During cruise, FO asks me to drive away the VOR in my active field, because on his ND he sees the dashed green line and he says it could make him confused whether he's on path/course.
What in the actual eff?! Um, ok buddy, here I'll dial another VOR so you don't see a dotted green line that somehow confuses you from your magenta line, making you think you're of course.
During cruise, FO asks me to drive away the VOR in my active field, because on his ND he sees the dashed green line and he says it could make him confused whether he's on path/course.
What in the actual eff?! Um, ok buddy, here I'll dial another VOR so you don't see a dotted green line that somehow confuses you from your magenta line, making you think you're of course.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Wait, the A350A goes to MCI? Or is that when you get a green slip after the AE?
My man's game is on fire
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
It's about 50/50. I personally don't care for it. I'll take care of my own side. I don't care for FOs reaching over and turning my FPV and VSD on for takeoff. Those aren't mandatory for departure, it's a preference thing, and I'll decide myself what I'd like on my side.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
I always set it up on the CA side if I had time. It helped to get things going the “right way” with the captain. It was usually appreciated and quite often there was a thank you when we referenced “altimeter” during the before start checklist. Big goal was everything was done when El Heffe showed. My joke was: “you should definitely check my work because I’m the biggest threat today but it’s all done.” When they were done double checking: “next time you see me on a trip you can sleep in and show 5 minutes to push.”
I’m done with the sim and waiting on OE. But I’ve already realized my big problem as El Capitan will be showing up too early. So my plan is to offer to get coffee or do the walk around so I’m not present when my FO is setting things up. Some captains were really good at this and some were terrible. My goal is to be good and at least not annoying to my FO.
Probably referencing the FOs seniority I’ll likely ask if they’d like help, if they are super junior before heading to the coffee shop.
I did get feedback that I was doing well with communication and CRM during training but I was also too helpful. I thought my FO training partner was cool so I was doing my best to make life easy but a couple of times I probably annoyed more than helped. It’s definitely a fine line and a big learning curve.
Fun part is I’ll probably be an FO again in OctoberWhich is why I didn’t want anyone to know I was going to upgrade ) Le sigh…
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It's not a big deal. I usually get to the plane :45 prior and the FO is usually almost always already onboard and in their seat (which means they've done their flight deck inspection check and initial checks on the overhead panel). I just hop in and start my side of things. If we both show up at the gate at the same time, I just tell the FO go ahead and get his setup and I'll just stay out of the way and brief the FAs in the meantime.
It'll be interesting to see how this bid turns out. -124 LAX Bus Captains and adding only +40 Boeing LAX CAs is gonna be brutal in my base/seat. It's hard to say for SEA. I think (?) you might be okay, as long as you leave no qualifier for the BPL column. I'm hoping people start chasing SFO for better relative seniority.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
All I’m saying is that with the really good tambourine shops, the manufacturing manager inspires the shop workers to not look at their phones and be a part of the team.
I also alluded to the fact that I’m new to all this and an idealist so maybe I won’t be able to inspire my tambourine makers to do any better. Only time will tell…
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poser765
Well-Known Member
Re scrolling TikTok pre departure. Captain gets one, maybe two legs to demonstrate that they can actually function in a social capacity. The number of captains I fly with that can’t human is VERY high and I’m not spending 4 days trying to engage with the other guy. I’ll get • set up and have the AOM open to the ground airstar procedure before we start boarding, then I’m on my phone. Ready to talk work stuff, phones down.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Meh, I don't mind if the runway isn't loaded at our departure gate. In fact we have notes at some airports (eg, HNL) do not put the arrival runway until after the descent forecast winds have been freshly inserted - which happens an hour out from landing. Left to my own devices, I'll load it around that time. If the FO wants to do it sooner, have at it - but not at one of these restricted airports. Then you wait until after descent winds have been loaded fresh an hour out.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
“My boats (guns, money, houses, ex-wives, kids)!!111”
DPApilot
GUYSH! GUYSH! GUYSH!
Sometimes I’ll add the landing runway, but that’s usually when we know what it’s always going to be. That’s also different when it’s a 12 hour leg as opposed to 2.5 hours. Back then I always loaded the entire approach.
alaskadrifter
Landing gear operator
155 total CA vacancies and not all of the Bus CAs will stay in LAX so hopefully no downgrades actually happen. I guess it depends on how many SR FOs upgrade.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Yeah I was gonna say, I've flown with some not-insignificant amount of CAs who have hurriedly looked at the release after they saw I put in a arrival runway. I did check myself, but I have generally stopped doing this because 1) some guys get worried about it, and 2) in 4-6 hrs the current arrival runway doesn't really mean anything in a lot of cases, especially on the routes I fly (i.e. redeye/after hours arrivals), double especially when it is somewhere like DFW with like 4-6 possible runways, noise abatement flow, etc etc. And then I have flown with another not-insignificant amount of CAs who will do like Zap says and insert it themselves, and then I will note that for the remainder of the trip. Like a smart guy once told me, you gotta be a chameleon as an FO. Can't read minds, and a lot of this stuff is personal preference rather than written down anywhere. I have generally had the mentality of not wanting to mess with the CA side/flow stuff because I don't want to get all up in their personal space. I'll set the altimeters of course (mine and the stby per previous discussion), grab weather (which is part of the flow), get clx and everything else, but I'm not one to "personalize" someone's crew station without their permission. I will very much check the cross feed valve though
And it took a couple trips to get it into my scan, but I'll try and make sure the APU/packs situation is tight by the time they get there. That all being said, good to hear some other perspectives here, and maybe I need to chill out a bit.As for the FO's who don't read MELs and don't bring up the appropriate procedural stuff (if applicable).....yeah, that's just laziness/dumb.
oh yeah,.....FPV.....half the time I get in the seat and it is activated. I still haven't found a good use for it. If I had a HUD, id absolutely use it, but it does nothing for me on the PFD. I say that as a velocity vector cripple in my previous (other current) airplane. I guess maybe it would be useful during an F/D off approach to find level flight? I guess I just use the IVSI and looking outside for that.
additional fun fact. 737 fuel burn is very similar to non-afterburner burn in an F/A-18 in clean configuration.....15 min fuel splits are close, pattern circuit similar, approach to MA about the same as well. I don't know why I say that, other than it is kinda neat, and shows just how inefficient low bypass turbofans with stub wings are
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ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
We're taught to throw an arrival and runway in. Even on the 16 hour flights. Just for fuel planning purposes.