Welcome to the Rest of your Career: Redux

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Meanwhile, we have the largest regional TA vote in history coming up in a month... oh and upgrade classes were pushed back until at least March because there are not enough FO's to fill the vacancies. So, there's that.

I'm hearing next week class has 50 people in it.

@Seggy how about mainline change their scope to no flying above 50 seats to be outsourced? That might be a good start. USA could bring those E175 they are buying to mainline and staff them.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Not only did you ignore a lot of what I wrote, you didn't propose a solution to the problem.

So let me ask you again, what is your solution to the problem? A poor guy like @Screaming_Emu is a seven year RJ FO. What is the solution to fix what that poor guy has been going through slugging it out at a regional?

If we adjust the way regionals are looked at in terms of not being a career destination, paying accordingly to force folks to move on, it turns into a quick apprenticeship to allow pilots to move on quicker than seven years. How is that 'looking down' on regional pilots? You throw the 'looking down' part around. Are YOU secure with yourself in what you do?

Once again, give me a solution to the problem instead of being so dramatic. Or maybe you need another cancer stick to calm down?

Except that's only a drop in the bucket in terms of the root of the problem. In fact, if a lot of people ahead of me HAD the chance to move on, I'd probably be stuck at this place even longer. The main causes of my problems have been stagnation caused by the economy and age 65. Very little of it has to do with people deciding to camp out at a regional. Most people just haven't had the opportunities to move on. For the last five years, there has been pretty much nowhere to go...at all.

The golden handcuffs are an excuse anyway. Second year at United or Delta and you're back at or above all but the most senior regional captains.

 

[Seggy]

@Seggy how about mainline change their scope to no flying above 50 seats to be outsourced? That might be a good start. USA could bring those E175 they are buying to mainline and staff them.

That still doesn't fix the economic problem of the 50 seaters.

 

[SeanD]

Not sure if this is a threat but West Jet is preparing to do trans Atlantic flights to Dublin on 737s.

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...ir-fares-war-across-the-atlantic-8955343.html

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

That still doesn't fix the economic problem of the 50 seaters.

Are you meaning fuel cost or crew cost? Insure what you mean

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Guaranteed flows are not required when you regional pilots who will sell their souls for interviews based on seniority.

And flows are a horrible idea.

@Seggy, I know you put your time in at a regional. But I also understand your time at Colgan was brief and atypical of most of our experiences with long upgrade times, etc. But I would bet my left nut that if you flew with a few crusty old 20 year regional captains who stopped giving a crap 10 years ago, you'd be rethinking the idea of a flow. Seriously, we had guys depart straight out from DCA....multiple times.

 

[Seggy]

Are you meaning fuel cost or crew cost? Insure what you mean

Cost of fuel and crew costs. They aren't economical like they were 15 years ago.


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[ComplexHiAv8r]

Cost of fuel and crew costs. They aren't economical like they were 15 years ago. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

True but I believe manageable. A few things might have to return to facilitate the larger aircraft instead of hub-out station-hub might be like years ago hub-out station 1-out station 2-hub. Do triangle one way in the am, noon other way, etc

 

[Seggy]

And flows are a horrible idea.

@Seggy, I know you put your time in at a regional. But I also understand your time at Colgan was brief and atypical of most of our experiences with long upgrade times, etc.

I was at Colgan from October 2005 until March 2012. Age 65 affected me like everyone else.

But I would bet my left nut that if you flew with a few crusty old 20 year regional captains who stopped giving a crap 10 years ago, you'd be rethinking the idea of a flow. Seriously, we had guys depart straight out from DCA....multiple times.

First off, there are two up front, why didn't the FOs speak up?

Secondly, I think the agreement Delta has with Endeavor is like a 50% pass rate. So yes, the 20 year regional captain who stopped giving a crap 10 years ago either needs to change attitude, or they are going to get a pay freeze under my solution to fix the problem.

 

[Firebird2XC]

No, ALPA is. What other options are out there?

They are focusing on the larger carriers. Look how Delta got those AirTran 717s. Higher paid pilots are flying that equipment due to the scope clause worked into the Delta contract which means higher dues revenue. It benefits all of us to see those aircraft at a mainline carrier, not at a regional.

Also, ALPA is ignoring the regionals that aren't playing ball to what Delta is trying to do to reset the regional rates.

Perhaps this is all the problem in a nutshell. You can't just ignore things or sideline parts of the union because they're not toeing the party line. And as I've stated earlier, I think the real problem with ALPA and the profession is that they're fighting to protect mainline jobs without doing the same with the regional end of things. If you're going to contain something, you've got to cover all sides. The regionals need to be bookended on the high and low sides so they can't erode it and use the slippage as the excuse to go after mainline contracts. The bottom line, or bottom of the barrel, per se, is the regional market. Given that pilot pay is traditionally linked to airframe size, the regionals are a slow, creeping attempt to reset us all on a new scale. That's why you can't ignore the problem.

You also can't just ignore a segment of the pilot group because their issues are unpalatable. There are such things as DFR suits for just that reason.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Not at all. The FFD landscape has completely changed over the past decade. When I was starting at Pinnacle, the regionals were growing like a weed. Upgrades were plentiful and fast even though there was no attrition, and there was no end to the guaranteed profits. The air service agreements were almost all cost-plus agreements, guaranteeing managements profitability, no matter what. And most importantly, longevity was low.

Today, the landscape has completely changed. The cost-plus contracts are gone forever, and FFD carrier is pitted against FFD carrier. Rather than mainline carriers being pitted against regional carriers to outsource the flying, it's now regional against regional fighting for the same dwindling scraps. And longevity has skyrocketed at some carriers, while staying very low at others, making block-hour costs vary widely from carrier to carrier. These are completely new problems. Problems that need to be focused on rather than ignored.

There's nothing that can ever be done to change that. That's a basic tenet of the RLA, and for good reason. It sucks sometimes, but it's a necessary evil.

That's kind of my point. Pilots these days rely on legal litigation and rhetoric to do their talking. But the real fact of the matter is that these line pilots need to be standing up for themselves. There have been times when crew scheduling has blatantly attempted to get me to do illegal things, or contractually invalid things, and I had to stand the line to cover my own ass, and tell them 'no'. All too often I see people roll over because they're afraid of retribution.

Metaphorically speaking, the 'company' is far too willing to trip us and kick us. If we're not willing to fight back and knuckle up, even so far as telling somebody to pound sand, and you're not doing it (and maybe taking a missed assignment) then you're not doing yourself any favors. The company knows they can just wait out a legal issue after the fact. Dealing with the here and now with the line-level employees is where change begins.

 

[Firebird2XC]

With talking to someone Todd, Andrew, and I know very well at Eagle, it sounded like the plan Doug Parker presented to the Eagle MEC on where, the pay would be cut at Eagle, but there was a clear path to American sounded like a damn good solution to the FFD problem.

It sucks.

No doubt about it.

But is what the Eagle pilots are facing now better than what Doug Parker presented?

There's been a 'clear path to American' a few dozen other times, and AA/AMR has reneg'd on that in ways requiring legal action so many times we don't really see their promises as worth-while. Furthermore, the deeper issue of using 'pay us today for a hamburger on Tuesday' is a common ploy- and they were promising us something down the line that would have reset the pay scale for the airline in perpetuity. As FFD carriers all frequently face the issue of being compared by cost to similar carriers, willfully voting in a B scale would have degraded the pay of every entry level pilot industry wide. It would have undone any of the career advances that came hand-in-hand with higher FO hiring requirements and hope of holding the line. Once you set the precedent of pilots paying outright for new jets, you'll never get that back.

That deal wasn't a solution, it was a suicide pact, and only the glasses of pilots had the Kool-Aid in it.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

That's kind of my point. Pilots these days rely on legal litigation and rhetoric to do their talking. But the real fact of the matter is that these line pilots need to be standing up for themselves. There have been times when crew scheduling has blatantly attempted to get me to do illegal things, or contractually invalid things, and I had to stand the line to cover my own ass, and tell them 'no'. All too often I see people roll over because they're afraid of retribution.

If you don't have the spine to stand up and say "no" to something illegal (FAR, CBA/PWA or otherwise) or unsafe then you aren't a professional.

Secondly, I think the agreement Delta has with Endeavor is like a 50% pass rate. So yes, the 20 year regional captain who stopped giving a crap 10 years ago either needs to change attitude, or they are going to get a pay freeze under my solution to fix the problem.

Interesting. Are you saying that only 50% of pilots on the Endeavour seniority list actually will make it to Delta, or Delta is turning down 50% of them, or what? If so:

What, precisely, did the pilots get out of this deal? (I mean, from my own seat, I strongly dislike and disapprove of flow-through agreements for economic and cultural reasons, but what really did the Bendover pilots get, if pulse plus seniority number doesn't equal wings with widgets?)

 

[L-16B]

I was at Colgan from October 2005 until March 2012. Age 65 affected me like everyone else.



First off, there are two up front, why didn't the FOs speak up?

Secondly, I think the agreement Delta has with Endeavor is like a 50% pass rate. So yes, the 20 year regional captain who stopped giving a crap 10 years ago either needs to change attitude, or they are going to get a pay freeze under my solution to fix the problem.

I haven't heard of anyone get the ssp jobs. It's definitely not a guaranteed path to delta.

 

[amorris311]

I haven't heard of anyone get the ssp jobs. It's definitely not a guaranteed path to delta.

There have been people who have passed the SSP and have been awarded conditional employment.

 

[amorris311]

Interesting. Are you saying that only 50% of pilots on the Endeavour seniority list actually will make it to Delta, or Delta is turning down 50% of them, or what? If so:

What, precisely, did the pilots get out of this deal? (I mean, from my own seat, I strongly dislike and disapprove of flow-through agreements for economic and cultural reasons, but what really did the Bendover pilots get, if pulse plus seniority number doesn't equal wings with widgets?)

From what I have been told, the pass rate for pilots that are part of the SSP is about 50% +/- a few.

 

[L-16B]

There have been people who have passed the SSP and have been awarded conditional employment.

Let me rephrase. I haven't heard of any ex Cjc pilots get hired, which are the only ones I know that have interviewed for it. It doesn't help when they have Cjc letters of discipline on file at an delta interview.

 

[L-16B]

And the fact that the pinnacle SSP is already 600 numbers deep in the seniority list shows that either lifers don't want to go or people are lazy and didn't throw their stuff on file at delta. And @amorris311 are u doing hippie California things today??

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Let me rephrase. I haven't heard of any ex Cjc pilots get hired, which are the only ones I know that have interviewed for it. It doesn't help when they have Cjc letters of discipline on file at an delta interview.

"Some guys don't trust a guy with an immaculate record. I have an immaculate record."

 

[Seggy]

Perhaps this is all the problem in a nutshell. You can't just ignore things or sideline parts of the union because they're not toeing the party line.

Well, you can bring that up to the BOD. They elected him. Not I.

And as I've stated earlier, I think the real problem with ALPA and the profession is that they're fighting to protect mainline jobs without doing the same with the regional end of things.

If you talk to some mainline guys they would say the opposite. So what is it?

You also can't just ignore a segment of the pilot group because their issues are unpalatable. There are such things as DFR suits for just that reason.

They aren't ignoring a segment of the pilot group. They are ignoring those who aren't 'playing ball'. Big difference.

Also, I really need clarification when you state this...

I still believe that 'middle-sizing' of airline fleets is likely, and the push to the 100 to 140 seat market is the largest domestic growth sector, and that subcontracting and outsourcing of that sector from mainline carriers will continue. In the long run, to protect our baseline of employment standards, it is as vitally important to fiercely lobby in defense of Regional pilot work rules and compensation as it is on the Legacy level of things.

If you had your way would regionals have the 100 to 140 seat flying? Or would they be at legacies?