Welcome to the Rest of your Career: Redux

L-16B said:
Let me rephrase. I haven't heard of any ex Cjc pilots get hired, which are the only ones I know that have interviewed for it. It doesn't help when they have Cjc letters of discipline on file at an delta interview.
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It is not surprising to me that no ex CJC has been hired, yet. When we start getting to guys that were in my seniority range, I think that will change.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I]
What, precisely, did the pilots get out of this deal? (I mean, from my own seat, I strongly dislike and disapprove of flow-through agreements for economic and cultural reasons, but what really did the Bendover pilots get, if pulse plus seniority number doesn't equal wings with widgets?)
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Did @amorris311 answer your question?
 
L-16B said:
And the fact that the pinnacle SSP is already 600 numbers deep in the seniority list shows that either lifers don't want to go or people are lazy and didn't throw their stuff on file at delta. And @amorris311 are u doing hippie California things today??
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And apparently out of that 600 only about 30 have interviewed and its something like 60% pass rate. Or so I have heard, I guess a memo came out saying that info.
 
Seggy said:
How the hell are you going to call me out of line?
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Because you are. Severely so. Others have said to me in recent months that you've become an arrogant jerk who doesn't care about the regional guys you've left behind. I've defended you. Now I'm starting to wonder if maybe I shouldn't defend you so adamantly. Your posts here show that you're basically willing to turn your back on the regionals and accept that crappy pay and working conditions are going to be a fact of life there. That's not trade unionism that I want to be a part of. Just because you got your brass ring at the majors doesn't mean that you should forget where you came from. Especially in such record time.

Firebird2XC said:
That's kind of my point. Pilots these days rely on legal litigation and rhetoric to do their talking. But the real fact of the matter is that these line pilots need to be standing up for themselves. There have been times when crew scheduling has blatantly attempted to get me to do illegal things, or contractually invalid things, and I had to stand the line to cover my own ass, and tell them 'no'. All too often I see people roll over because they're afraid of retribution.

Metaphorically speaking, the 'company' is far too willing to trip us and kick us. If we're not willing to fight back and knuckle up, even so far as telling somebody to pound sand, and you're not doing it (and maybe taking a missed assignment) then you're not doing yourself any favors. The company knows they can just wait out a legal issue after the fact. Dealing with the here and now with the line-level employees is where change begins.
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Agree 100%. But the union can't really tell people to do that, of course. Pilots just have to stand up for themselves. If the union directs it, it's an illegal job action.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Because you are. Severely so. Others have said to me in recent months that you've become an arrogant jerk who doesn't care about the regional guys you've left behind. I've defended you. Now I'm starting to wonder if maybe I shouldn't defend you so adamantly.
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Oh for crying out loud Todd, I had to sit through more FFD meetings than you could ever have imagine occurred. It was pointless. The FFD ALPA represented regionals have nothing to show for all that work. Are you arguing that fact? Are you saying such things are different than I am portraying? I'm not playing politician feel nice here, I am calling it as I see it.

Your posts here show that you're basically willing to turn your back on the regionals and accept that crappy pay and working conditions are going to be a fact of life there. That's not trade unionism that I want to be a part of. Just because you got your brass ring at the majors doesn't mean that you should forget where you came from. Especially in such record time.
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I remember exactly where I come from.

That's why I am proposing a realistic way for us to fix the FFD problem. I want others to not get in the regional mindset and remember why (most) that enter the 121 world went that way.
To have a guaranteed flow instead of what we see at Endeavor will help everyone. It will raise hiring standards so places look to hire the right person, not the right flight time. Isn't trade unionism support a pathway to more lucrative jobs and employment as one works their way up their craft? Why are you being so angry about what I want? I feel it's a way to quicker, more lucrative employment for the union members.



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Seggy said:
Good question.

The brand you are flying is the brand you would flow. But you would need to be 'hired' into that brand



See above.



Seniority.



A secondary result of this would be you would have majors doing the interviews at the Regional level. It is already happening as Delta handles Compass's interview processes so this isn't THAT hard to imagine. If you wanted to go to United, you may need to do more than one interview, even for a regional job, if you wanted to go to the ERJ side to flow to United.

It would probably work out well for the pilots to do all these interviews during a compressed timeframe instead of spreading them out over years. It would also look at the applicant moreso than the flight time.



Huh? I don't get this. You would need to keep pay, benefits, etc low at the regional to encourage the flow.
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Geez, at that point wouldn't it be easier just to move the RJs to mainline?
 
Seggy said:
Oh for crying out loud Todd, I had to sit through more FFD meetings than you could ever have imagine occurred. It was pointless. The FFD ALPA represented regionals have nothing to show for all that work. Are you arguing that fact? Are you saying such things are different than I am portraying? I'm not playing politician feel nice here, I am calling it as I see it.
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If you were at all of these meetings, sounds like you weren't very effective in getting things done. Maybe you should give your FPL back. (not really, but that's how ridiculous you sound)

That's why I am proposing a realistic way for us to fix the FFD problem
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What you propose fixes absolutely nothing. It continues the race to the bottom at the regionals, and probably exacerbates it. You would create a permanent underclass of airline pilots that has pay and working conditions that keep getting worse year after year. And you would have them just suck it up because there may be a light at the end of the tunnel...you know, if management doesn't snatch it away from them at the last minute.

Pilots are pilots. They are all deserving of a dignified work environment. They shouldn't have to be slaves in some "apprenticeship" at the regionals. Paying your dues is one thing. Throwing in the towel and submitting to draconian working conditions forever in one segment of the profession is another.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
If you were at all of these meetings, sounds like you weren't very effective in getting things done. Maybe you should give your FPL back. (not really, but that's how ridiculous you sound)
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Uh huh, like you weren't effective with your pilots and the SLI? Let's not play this game.

I did express my frustration on how nothing was really getting accomplished. It fell on deaf ears.


What you propose fixes absolutely nothing. It continues the race to the bottom at the regionals, and probably exacerbates it. You would create a permanent underclass of airline pilots that has pay and working conditions that keep getting worse year after year. And you would have them just suck it up because there may be a light at the end of the tunnel...you know, if management doesn't snatch it away from them at the last minute.

Pilots are pilots. They are all deserving of a dignified work environment. They shouldn't have to be slaves in some "apprenticeship" at the regionals. Paying your dues is one thing. Throwing in the towel and submitting to draconian working conditions forever in one segment of the profession is another.
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This is the perfect time to try something like this.

Draconian rules? Sure about that? Because in about a month FAR 117 makes draconian work rules a thing of the past. Pay will be livable
on both pay scales, but the economics just don't support a person making $90,000 a year flying a 50 seat jet. If we don't fix it management will.


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Seggy said:
Oh for crying out loud Todd, I had to sit through more FFD meetings than you could ever have imagine occurred. It was pointless. The FFD ALPA represented regionals have nothing to show for all that work. Are you arguing that fact? Are you saying such things are different than I am portraying? I'm not playing politician feel nice here, I am calling it as I see it.



I remember exactly where I come from.

That's why I am proposing a realistic way for us to fix the FFD problem. I want others to not get in the regional mindset and remember why (most) that enter the 121 world went that way.
To have a guaranteed flow instead of what we see at Endeavor will help everyone. It will raise hiring standards so places look to hire the right person, not the right flight time. Isn't trade unionism support a pathway to more lucrative jobs and employment as one works their way up their craft? Why are you being so angry about what I want? I feel it's a way to quicker, more lucrative employment for the union members.



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I bet (or at least hope) you were singing a different tune when you were representing regional pilots.

Hey look, a ladder....*YANK*
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I bet (or at least hope) you were singing a different tune when you were representing regional pilots.

Hey look, a ladder....*YANK*
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Oh come on. Did you read my post? It would be frozen for the folks already there.

Please suggest another way to fix the problem.


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Seggy said:
Oh come on. Did you read my post? It would be frozen for the folks already there.

Please suggest another way to fix the problem.


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I've been basically frozen for the last 5 years.

You had it way easier than most because timing is everything. You are WAY off base on what the regional industry is like for most.

I'd aggressively estimate 30% of the ASA side to be self proclaimed lifers. They could have all gone to mainline when they had the chance and I'd STILL be where I am. Hell, given a flow and the train wreck that the PCL agreement was, YOU would still be there. I'd much rather have junior people who have good attitudes and apply themselves get the opportunities to move on than have any kind of flow.

I've been working my ass off, as have most of us and throught no fault of our own are stuck with no escape in sight. You're yanking the ladder up and being incredibly arrogant in the process.
 
Seggy said:
Uh huh, like you weren't effective with your pilots and the SLI? Let's not play this game.
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No, by all means, let's play. After all, I wasn't in office, so I'd love to hear how you'd connect me to it. Go!

Draconian rules? Sure about that? Because in about a month FAR 117 makes draconian work rules a thing of the past.
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Yeah, that will fix all of the problems. :sarcasm:

If we don't fix it management will.
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I don't think they're worried about that. Seems like you're doing their job for them. The Donald would be proud.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
If you don't have the spine to stand up and say "no" to something illegal (FAR, CBA/PWA or otherwise) or unsafe then you aren't a professional.
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You're preaching to the choir on that one. The company feeds on ignorance and fear there. And anybody that's been around for a while knows that crew scheduling will absolutely push crews to do illegal things- especially when they can keep them in the dark- and then self-declare. Things happen. Seen it at two carriers now. The difference in the outcome? Union backing.

And don't say it doesn't happen. .. and you weren't around when we got the TSA planes back. Those things were scary.
 
Seggy said:
Well, you can bring that up to the BOD. They elected him. Not I.
(on who ALPA works for)
If you talk to some mainline guys they would say the opposite. So what is it?
They aren't ignoring a segment of the pilot group. They are ignoring those who aren't 'playing ball'. Big difference.
Also, I really need clarification when you state this...
If you had your way would regionals have the 100 to 140 seat flying? Or would they be at legacies?
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*shrugs* All I know is the party line I hear from mainline pilots is "we're taking it back". Taking what back? All I see is kitbag stickers and posturing- while regional scope creep continues and erosion of mainline pay continues to slide.

Ignoring those that "aren't playing ball" means that pilot groups- which are governed by their own MECs- are being coerced into toeing a party line being dictated by National. Why even have individual carrier MECs if that's the method?

And my clarification on the growth of the market and the direction it will head in domestic traffic? I see the 100-140 seat market falling eventual prey to the creep of outsourcing. My take on it? I think outsourcing is bad for pilots, and I'd like to see the flying and the equipment stay at better paying jobs with the Legacies.

But what I want and what I think will likely happen aren't mutually exclusive. That's why I think it's vitally important for the baseline at the regional level to be set. Because the baseline at the regional level is in fact the baseline for the industry and the pilot profession. Any time we allow the industry to chip away at that, we all lose. And here's why: The *only* reason the profession will see flying taken back on a large and long-running basis is because the cost disparity between mainline and regional carriers becomes negligible. Operating a 50 seat airplane costs the same at either a mainline carrier or a regional- minus the crew. Same goes for a 140 seat airplane. Why pay more just to have the same airplane flown by a mainline crew when you can get a regional crew to do it?

The new FO hiring rules will put a dent in regional recruiting. This may or may not result in regional pilot salaries rising. If they don't, and they manage to staff the regionals, they'll continue to press to take domestic airplanes away from mainline and outsource them to regionals. If they can't staff them, or the cost of staffing them rises to near-mainline levels, then eventually airlines will see they're just paying double for infrastructure and management when they could just be absorbing the fleets they can't staff.

.... except for one key issue. Having a large portion of your operation- and your labor- outsourced divides pilot groups and pits them against each other for their advancement and survival. The airlines of the 70's would have paid a mint for the paper walls between most labor groups we have these days. Only if- and only if- costs of regionals rise to make the extra cost of keeping them separated rises to make them counterproductive.

So yes, I hope the bigger jets stay at mainline. But in order to do that, we need to keep the regional airline market an improving place for labor. Or eventually the regionals will get pushed down enough and cheap enough that taking jobs from mainline will be an all-too appealing choice for management.

Follow me?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Agree 100%. But the union can't really tell people to do that, of course. Pilots just have to stand up for themselves. If the union directs it, it's an illegal job action.
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The union really can't tell people to do much of anything. But they do say that if the company says to do something illegal, they tell us to refuse. But I've seen Captains refuse FAs because of duty illegalities or whatnot- and be coerced into accepting the FA after the fact.

I walked away from that flight. They cancelled. I took a missed assignment, but the CP took my side. We're now legally obligated to bang out if we're too fatigued to fly, but a lot of guys won't because they're afraid it'll come back on them. Then they ask "how do I know if I'm fatigued?", I tell them- if you're asking, you already are. But people still get pushed.
 
Help me understand because I'm not in tune with this world...
If the union tells pilots not to accept assignments that contradict the FARs and the CBA, that is considered an illegal job action?
Can they do things like inform their members of common problem areas that the company tries to violate, and teach people how to spot them?
 
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