Welcome to the Rest of your Career: Redux

[Seggy]

If portable longevity isn't part of the solution, what is?

Guaranteed flows to majors.

Solves a lot of issues, is easier to negotiate and implement.

 

[ClarkGriswold]

But you, @amorris311, @ATN_Pilot, I, and about 99% of those that get into flying DON'T get into it to spend the rest of one's career at a FFD airline. Instead of investing into such a ludicrous idea about portable longevity, wouldn't a guaranteed flow be a better recruiting tool? It would also force majors to be involved with the recruitment at the FFD airlines and solve a lot of other issues we see at the FFD airlines.

It would also be a lot easier to implement and get from the regionals and majors to sign off on.

Won't hear any disagreement from me on that! Just saying how portable longevity could be argued IMO.

 

[jtrain609]

Guaranteed flows to majors.

Solves a lot of issues, is easier to negotiate and implement.

So where do our guys go? United? Delta? How about on the Skywest side? Alaska? The New American?

How do you determine who goes where?

A bid?

What if a person REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to go to Delta but doesn't fit the culture? That's a bad result for Delta.

Also, what happens if you can't flow until you're in the bottom 10% of the mainline list for the rest of your career? Who in their right mind would do that?

 

[Seggy]

So where do our guys go? United? Delta? How about on the Skywest side? Alaska? The New American?

Good question.

The brand you are flying is the brand you would flow. But you would need to be 'hired' into that brand

How do you determine who goes where?

See above.

A bid?

Seniority.

What if a person REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to go to Delta but doesn't fit the culture? That's a bad result for Delta.

A secondary result of this would be you would have majors doing the interviews at the Regional level. It is already happening as Delta handles Compass's interview processes so this isn't THAT hard to imagine. If you wanted to go to United, you may need to do more than one interview, even for a regional job, if you wanted to go to the ERJ side to flow to United.

It would probably work out well for the pilots to do all these interviews during a compressed timeframe instead of spreading them out over years. It would also look at the applicant moreso than the flight time.

Also, what happens if you can't flow until you're in the bottom 10% of the mainline list for the rest of your career? Who in their right mind would do that?

Huh? I don't get this. You would need to keep pay, benefits, etc low at the regional to encourage the flow.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

The problem with flow, @Seggy , is lifers. Sure, it's possible to guarantee tomorrows applicant would have to go through the vetting process of the major they seek before sitting at the front of regional metal. But how do we prevent lifers from flowing, and how do we prevent them from creating a toxic environment that could shape the successful major interviewee who is now their FO?

 

[drunkenbeagle]

If portable longevity isn't part of the solution, what is?

How would portable longevity work exactly?

 

[Seggy]

The problem with flow, @Seggy , is lifers. Sure, it's possible to guarantee tomorrows applicant would have to go through the vetting process of the major they seek before sitting at the front of regional metal. But how do we prevent lifers from flowing, and how do we prevent them from creating a toxic environment that could shape the successful major interviewee who is now their FO?

You would give the lifers an opportunity to interview. If they can't do it or don't want to the lifers on property now would be frozen except for small cost of living increases.

For the new ones coming on property, the pay, benefits, and work rules wouldn't be much. However, that would encourage a reason to flow. From my understanding Doug Parker proposed this to the Eagle guys which their MEC turned down.

Look at the lifers at places like Eagle/ASA/XJT/Endeavor. Pilots making six figures for flying a 50 seat RJ, good work rules, good schedules. You know as well as I do that folks are very comfortable. Not realistic to expect that going forward.

 

[Seggy]

Oh, one more thing. It wouldn't be a career at a regional.

It would be a true apprenticeship.

 

[jtrain609]

The concept sounds elegant, but we've got A WHOLE LOT OF GUYS who got SCREWED by the flow with CAL years ago. We've got a list of a few hundred guys who were scheduled to flow, and then scheduled for a preferential interview, and then scheduled to maybe talk with them one day, and then nothing, and they're still sitting on the top of our list, waiting to flow.

Some guys turned the flow down, but a lot of guys didn't have the opportunity to make that choice.

What's to stop that from happening again?

 

[ClarkGriswold]

The concept sounds elegant, but we've got A WHOLE LOT OF GUYS who got SCREWED by the flow with CAL years ago. We've got a list of a few hundred guys who were scheduled to flow, and then scheduled for a preferential interview, and then scheduled to maybe talk with them one day, and then nothing, and they're still sitting on the top of our list, waiting to flow.

Some guys turned the flow down, but a lot of guys didn't have the opportunity to make that choice.

What's to stop that from happening again?

Good point, look at Compass too. Many still have it but everyone is always thinking it's one day away from being gone.

 

[amorris311]

Oh, one more thing. It wouldn't be a career at a regional.

It would be a true apprenticeship.

Aprrenticeship? So doing the same job in a 50 seat airplane as you do in your 200 seat airplane is not the same? I'm happy you have moved to greener pastures, but come down from your almighty throne! Tomorrow I want to wake up to an email from you sent to all ALPA pilots discussing your thoughts on apprenticeship. I'm sick and tired of mainline guys looking down on regional pilots. We do the same job as you whether you like it or not.

 

[amorris311]

The concept sounds elegant, but we've got A WHOLE LOT OF GUYS who got SCREWED by the flow with CAL years ago. We've got a list of a few hundred guys who were scheduled to flow, and then scheduled for a preferential interview, and then scheduled to maybe talk with them one day, and then nothing, and they're still sitting on the top of our list, waiting to flow.

Some guys turned the flow down, but a lot of guys didn't have the opportunity to make that choice.

What's to stop that from happening again?

It's called an apprenticeship John. Get with the program. We have bigger fish to fry in Abu Dhabi. Your problems are just in your head.

 

[Seggy]

Aprrenticeship? So doing the same job in a 50 seat airplane as you do in your 200 seat airplane is not the same? I'm happy you have moved to greener pastures, but come down from your almighty throne! Tomorrow I want to wake up to an email from you sent to all ALPA pilots discussing your thoughts on apprenticeship. I'm sick and tired of mainline guys looking down on regional pilots. We do the same job as you whether you like it or not.

Not only did you ignore a lot of what I wrote, you didn't propose a solution to the problem.

So let me ask you again, what is your solution to the problem? A poor guy like @Screaming_Emu is a seven year RJ FO. What is the solution to fix what that poor guy has been going through slugging it out at a regional?

If we adjust the way regionals are looked at in terms of not being a career destination, paying accordingly to force folks to move on, it turns into a quick apprenticeship to allow pilots to move on quicker than seven years. How is that 'looking down' on regional pilots? You throw the 'looking down' part around. Are YOU secure with yourself in what you do?

Once again, give me a solution to the problem instead of being so dramatic. Or maybe you need another cancer stick to calm down?

 

[Seggy]

The concept sounds elegant, but we've got A WHOLE LOT OF GUYS who got SCREWED by the flow with CAL years ago.

From my understanding a very good majority of them had a ton of opportunity to flow.

We've got a list of a few hundred guys who were scheduled to flow, and then scheduled for a preferential interview, and then scheduled to maybe talk with them one day, and then nothing, and they're still sitting on the top of our list, waiting to flow.

Ok. Once again, from my understanding, there were a lot of opportunities to flow.

What's to stop that from happening again?

Have provisions in the contract that if the flow is canceled, cost prohibited snapbacks are put in the contract that made it extremely expensive for the flow to be canceled.

 

[jtrain609]

From my understanding a very good majority of them had a ton of opportunity to flow.



Ok. Once again, from my understanding, there were a lot of opportunities to flow.





Have provisions in the contract that if the flow is canceled, cost prohibited snapbacks are put in the contract that made it extremely expensive for the flow to be canceled.

That'll shut down the regional and put all those pilots on the street, upon where the mainline carrier will happily find the next low bidder for the work.

It works twice in managements favor: first you kill the flow they never wanted, then you shut down the company that was too expensive. It's a win win, really.

 

[Seggy]

That'll shut down the regional and put all those pilots on the street, upon where the mainline carrier will happily find the next low bidder for the work.

It works twice in managements favor: first you kill the flow they never wanted, then you shut down the company that was too expensive. It's a win win, really.

So you are saying that your current contract is going to be 'competitive' economically if y'all turn down the TA?

Once again, how do you fix the problem?

 

[mastermags]

Meanwhile, we have the largest regional TA vote in history coming up in a month... oh and upgrade classes were pushed back until at least March because there are not enough FO's to fill the vacancies. So, there's that.

 

[jtrain609]

So you are saying that your current contract is going to be 'competitive' economically if y'all turn down the TA?

No, I think we're being shut down no matter what.

Once again, how do you fix the problem?

There is no fix. All is lost.

Seriously.

All we have to look forward to is continued pain and misery at the regional level, and at the end of the line we'll all be shut down and lose our jobs.

We should accept that many will play this game, and few will win. Place your bets, folks!

 

[Seggy]

There is no fix. All is lost.

Seriously.

Not all is lost.

The current economic structure of FFD carriers, where you have 50 seat RJ Captains making $90,000 a year is broken.

Fix that, with a guaranteed flow, it works out a lot of issues.

 

[mastermags]

Not all is lost.

The current economic structure of FFD carriers, where you have 50 seat RJ Captains making $90,000 a year is broken.

Fix that, with a guaranteed flow, it works out a lot of issues.

Guaranteed flows are not required when you regional pilots who will sell their souls for interviews based on seniority.