Welcome to the Rest of your Career: Redux

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Help me understand because I'm not in tune with this world...
If the union tells pilots not to accept assignments that contradict the FARs and the CBA, that is considered an illegal job action?

Yep. Courts have ruled that it's a "change in the status quo."

Can they do things like inform their members of common problem areas that the company tries to violate, and teach people how to spot them?

Yes, that you can do. You just can't tell them to ignore a direct order from their supervisor. So we can't tell people not to do something if they're chief pilot tells them to do it.

Now, what would I do personally? I would refuse it anyway. And I have in the past. But I did so knowing that it could result in discipline, and I'd have to get it cleared through the grievance process. I'm willing to take that risk. Others don't have the balls for that, sadly.

 

[Roger Roger]

Yep. Courts have ruled that it's a "change in the status quo."



Yes, that you can do. You just can't tell them to ignore a direct order from their supervisor. So we can't tell people not to do something if they're chief pilot tells them to do it.

Now, what would I do personally? I would refuse it anyway. And I have in the past. But I did so knowing that it could result in discipline, and I'd have to get it cleared through the grievance process. I'm willing to take that risk. Others don't have the balls for that, sadly.

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Help me understand because I'm not in tune with this world...
If the union tells pilots not to accept assignments that contradict the FARs and the CBA, that is considered an illegal job action?
Can they do things like inform their members of common problem areas that the company tries to violate, and teach people how to spot them?

There's no such thing as illegal per the CBA. Just 'contractually invalid'. The law, however, is the law, and it's officially the company line that you never break the law, just as it's the union's practical line. The union telling pilots to do something because of a contractual issue is a job action. Think of it as a strike on a personal level. Illegal, however, is illegal, and nobody has to follow through with that.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Illegal, however, is illegal, and nobody has to follow through with that.

Well, you would think so, but there have been exceptions. For example, a judge who ruled that pilots couldn't start writing up airplanes when they hadn't been before, even though the airplanes had legitimate maintenance issues.

 

[derg]

Or my favorite about not volunteering to fly a historic amount of voluntary overtime.

 

[Seggy]

I've been basically frozen for the last 5 years.

No doubt, that sucks.

You had it way easier than most because timing is everything. You are WAY off base on what the regional industry is like for most.

It had little to do with timing and more
of going to the first place that hired me and staying there. I had friends at XJT telling me I should leave Colgan because of the branded flying they were starting and how I was foolish for staying to just fly a T-Prop. I put a gamble that 121TPIC would get me where I wanted to be and not jet time at a regional.

I'd aggressively estimate 30% of the ASA side to be self proclaimed lifers. They could have all gone to mainline when they had the chance and I'd STILL be where I am. Hell, given a flow and the train wreck that the PCL agreement was, YOU would still be there.

It wouldn't have taken much for me to get stuck at Pinnacle you are right about that. I was very fortunate to get out.

But here is the point. Y'all have a turd of a TA in front of you, much like the Pinnacle Contract. If y'all had a guaranteed flow in place for you and your pay and benefits were frozen, would you vote no just because folks not hired yet were going to be put on livable, but lower pay and benefits? FOs wouldn't even be taking a hit to make it a livable wage, Captains wages would come down. Your first year pay now isn't livable. That would need to be raised so FOs first year would make $35,000+ to be livable.

Also you now have Delta doing the interviews at Endeavor and Compass. We have talked on years on here about raising hiring standards. Well that is starting to happen. Wouldn't it be nice to interview at a major at 23 and not need to worry about having to do that again down the road?

I'd much rather have junior people who have good attitudes and apply themselves get the opportunities to move on than have any kind of flow.

If someone knows that their future is dependent on the success of your mainline partner they will be a lot more inclined to have good attitudes, embrace customer service, and not be complacent.

I've been working my ass off, as have most of us and throught no fault of our own are stuck with no escape in sight.

No doubt you have been working your ass off (with others). I think the escape will happen sooner than you think.

You're yanking the ladder up and being incredibly arrogant in the process.

That's really not fair. I want folks to be able to make the move easily from a regional to major. In order to do that, Captains aren't going to be able to make close to $90,000 flying a 50 seat RJ. Cuts are already coming at the regionals. Why not give those pilots a way to get to a better paying, more stable job at a major/legacy?


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[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

What's truly disgusting is that you're dismissing the idea of a captain making $90k, not because it's too little, but because it's too much. Unbelievable.

 

[Seggy]

No, by all means, let's play. After all, I wasn't in office, so I'd love to hear how you'd connect me to it. Go!

First off, if you want to get on a soap box about 'trade unionism' ALPA has done a horrific job of throwing regional FOs under the bus with horrific pay rates that aren't livable. Why hasn't that been fixed?

Secondly, when I brought that up at the FFD Conferences (I was a Captain at the time), I was given very dirty looks by the other attendees there who were also mostly regional Captains. So there is only so much you can really so before you know that it is an exercise in futility.

Thirdly, you weren't there for these meetings. It didn't take long to figure out they were a waste of time.

Yeah, that will fix all of the problems.

It will fix a lot.

I don't think they're worried about that. Seems like you're doing their job for them. The Donald would be proud.

Oh please, ALPA has been screwing the pooch with regionals long before you and I have been flying. Look at the Comair RJDC or whatever that was called, pay/work issues, and of course scope.

The fact of the matter is if you look at Compass and Endeavor the regionals are moving towards what I'm suggesting rather than your pipe dream of portable longevity.


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[Seggy]

What's truly disgusting is that you're dismissing the idea of a captain making $90k, not because it's too little, but because it's too much. Unbelievable.

Oh please Todd always a flair for the dramatics.

First, that pilot is making 90k at the expense of the FO who might be on first year pay making at most 25k. Is that fair? What has ALPA done to correct that? What did the FFD working group do to correct that?

Secondly, how does that work economically on a 50 seat jet as well?


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[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

First off, if you want to get on a soap box about 'trade unionism' ALPA has done a horrific job of throwing regional FOs under the bus with horrific pay rates that aren't livable. Why hasn't that been fixed?

Secondly, when I brought that up at the FFD Conferences (I was a Captain at the time), I was given very dirty looks by the other attendees there who were also mostly regional Captains. So there is only so much you can really so before you know that it is an exercise in futility.

So, essentially, your argument is that two wrongs make a right? Noted.

The fact of the matter is if you look at Compass and Endeavor the regionals are moving towards what I'm suggesting rather than your pipe dream of portable longevity.

Yes, and how's that working out for them? Pay continues to be decimated, 401ks are being cut, and benefits continue to diminish. But hey, someday, if they're lucky, they'll get to work at a job that doesn't treat them like a slave! So just suck it up and take the beatings like a man.

Sorry, but no. That's not what unionism is all about.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

First, that pilot is making 90k at the expense of the FO who might be on first year pay making at most 25k. Is that fair? What has ALPA done to correct that? What did the FFD working group do to correct that?

I don't consider it unreasonable for someone on probation to be making $25k. It wasn't that long ago that Delta and UPS were paying probationary pilots that same amount. Pay should come up dramatically second year, but I think management is within their rights to expect a probationary period for an entry-level employee to prove himself before paying up, especially when they're dropping $40k on his training.

Secondly, how does that work economically on a 50 seat jet as well?

The only reason the economics aren't working is that mainline managements have squeezed the regionals. Small RJs are loss-leader airframes. Their purpose is to bring feed into the high-dollar transcon and international routes at the hubs. That's always been their role, and the economics may have shifted, but it hasn't been such a dramatic shift that pay needs to go from $110k to $60k.

Furthermore, such ridiculous reasoning from you only sets you up for failure in your own contract. Have you listened to nothing that Bruce has been saying for the past decade now? The huge delta between pay tables is what caused the massive concessions following 9/11. It's also what made outsourcing to the regionals so attractive. As long as the guy flying the RJ is making so much less than you are to fly a 737, there will always be immense downward pressure on your wages. It's in your own best interest to keep the regional guy's pay up. Do it for that reason, since apparently you won't do it for moral reasons.

 

[BE19Pilot]

It had little to do with timing and more
of going to the first place that hired me and staying there. I had friends at XJT telling me I should leave Colgan because of the branded flying they were starting and how I was foolish for staying to just fly a T-Prop. I put a gamble that 121TPIC would get me where I wanted to be and not jet time at a regional.
You did really well considering you were a lineman...and, everyone says quarterbacks are smart...LOL

 

[Seggy]

So, essentially, your argument is that two wrongs make a right? Noted.

No. It is just that you stand on a soapbox yelling about trade unionism (which I firmly believe in), but the facts of what ALPA has and hasn't done are ignored.

Yes, and how's that working out for them? Pay continues to be decimated, 401ks are being cut, and benefits continue to diminish. But hey, someday, if they're lucky, they'll get to work at a job that doesn't treat them like a slave! So just suck it up and take the beatings like a man.

Sorry, but no. That's not what unionism is all about.

I know it is not. But the fact of the matter is that we are being driven down this road and ALPA has done nothing to correct it. It just shows that my belief that the FFD working group was a colossal waste of time. You can't argue differently.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

No. It is just that you stand on a soapbox yelling about trade unionism (which I firmly believe in), but the facts of what ALPA has and hasn't done are ignored.

Not ignored. Just not part of this conversation. I could go on and on about the things ALPA has done wrong (especially over the last few years), but that has nothing to do with your idea that regional pilots should just suck it up and accept concessions in return for the possibility of a light at the end of the tunnel.

I know it is not. But the fact of the matter is that we are being driven down this road and ALPA has done nothing to correct it. It just shows that my belief that the FFD working group was a colossal waste of time. You can't argue differently.

I certainly can. Nothing that attempts to bring pilots together is a waste of time. Some efforts will succeed, and some will fail. But I don't consider the failures to be a waste of time. They are learning experiences, at the very least. We need to continue pressing forward with trying to fix the problem, rather than throwing up our hands and accepting defeat.

 

[Seggy]

I don't consider it unreasonable for someone on probation to be making $25k. It wasn't that long ago that Delta and UPS were paying probationary pilots that same amount. Pay should come up dramatically second year, but I think management is within their rights to expect a probationary period for an entry-level employee to prove himself before paying up, especially when they're dropping $40k on his training.

So you are ok with a pilot going on food stamps because they are being trained to fly an airplane and are only going to make $25,000? How does that work into your trade unionism soapbox? Guys and gals are under immense pressure the first year, giving them financial pressure isn't acceptable.

The only reason the economics aren't working is that mainline managements have squeezed the regionals. Small RJs are loss-leader airframes. Their purpose is to bring feed into the high-dollar transcon and international routes at the hubs. That's always been their role, and the economics may have shifted, but it hasn't been such a dramatic shift that pay needs to go from $110k to $60k.

Explain to me were I said it needs to be dropped to $60,000? Regardless of that, if a guaranteed flow was to be established, guys wouldn't be at regionals long before they flowed up. With this flow, it would also cause others such as Spirit/Virgin/Jetblue to raise their pay/benefits as they would need to incentivise those to leave a guaranteed job to move over to a carrier outside of a flow agreement. That then raises the squiggly lines on that charts you reference below.

Furthermore, such ridiculous reasoning from you only sets you up for failure in your own contract. Have you listened to nothing that Bruce has been saying for the past decade now?

I saw him a few weeks ago and asked him what he thinks of all this regional cost cutting. He thinks it was going to correct itself and he was very bullish on what is happening at the majors. I asked him specifically, 'well what about those still at the regionals'. He then said, 'the amount of retirements will fix the problem for those that want to move on.' I can't disagree with him on that.

The huge delta between pay tables is what caused the massive concessions following 9/11. It's also what made outsourcing to the regionals so attractive. As long as the guy flying the RJ is making so much less than you are to fly a 737, there will always be immense downward pressure on your wages. It's in your own best interest to keep the regional guy's pay up.

You need to read more closely Todd. Notice on how I said nothing about the 50+ seat aircraft and pay cuts? You put your negotiating leverage in aircraft that have a future. Majors are shifting more of the flying on their own from the 50 seaters to the 66 to 76 seat market. The economics of the 50 seat RJ just aren't there. For example, as Colgan went out of business some of the cities that we used to serve on Slaabs, a few of our mainline partners tried to put a 50 seat jet on it. They then had to pull out as the economics were no there. Some cities they didn't even try to replace our flying with a jet on. Let airlines park the 50 seat jets on their own. But let us put the money in the larger aircraft AND getting the union members better paying, more stable jobs.

Do it for that reason, since apparently you won't do it for moral reasons.

Oh would you relax already and stop throwing around personal insults? If my moral reasons got in my way, I would NOT have joined two organizing committees, which caused my job to be threatened and all the other 'fun' that goes along with being on the organizing committee twice of a non-union company.

 

[Seggy]

Not ignored. Just not part of this conversation. I could go on and on about the things ALPA has done wrong (especially over the last few years), but that has nothing to do with your idea that regional pilots should just suck it up and accept concessions in return for the possibility of a light at the end of the tunnel.

Where have I said regional pilots should just suck it up?

They need to make hard decisions on what to do. Look at what happened at Endeavor. Those pilots either faced liquidation or a sucky contract with a possibility to get a job at Delta. They certainly didn't throw their hands up in defeat. They said, if we have to take these pay cuts what can we get in return for it. They choose a flimsy interview process with Delta. If another company faces the same option (such as Eagle) shouldn't they try to get a more secure flow agreement? In negotiations there is give and take. Unfortunately, the bankruptcy code doesn't allow for that much give and take. Yes, ideally if we can fix the bankruptcy code this whole argument would be a moot point. I would be all for that, but an Executive Order by the President would probably need to make that happen.

I certainly can. Nothing that attempts to bring pilots together is a waste of time. Some efforts will succeed, and some will fail. But I don't consider the failures to be a waste of time. They are learning experiences, at the very least. We need to continue pressing forward with trying to fix the problem, rather than throwing up our hands and accepting defeat.

Concessionary deals are barreling down the pipeline at Regionals. It started at Endeavor thanks to the crummy bankruptcy laws we have. Look who was the MEC Chair at Endeavor at the time? Now, is it his fault with what happened at Endeavor. No. He got his pilot group the 'best deal possible'. However, that 'best deal possible' was certainly not what he had in mind when he started out with the FFD working group. As @jtrain609, there are no gold stars for participation when it comes to our career.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So you are ok with a pilot going on food stamps because they are being trained to fly an airplane and are only going to make $25,000?

In order to qualify for food stamps on $25k per year, you have to have a family of 3 on a single income. Sorry, but it isn't the company's responsibility to subsidize someone's bad decisions. If you're starting out a career at an entry-level job, you shouldn't have two other mouths to feed. That's just bad decision-making. Which, come to think of it, is a good disqualifier for being an airline pilot.

Explain to me were I said it needs to be dropped to $60,000?

You made it pretty clear that it can't be $90k, so I assume you don't mean $89.9k (which is still far too low, BTW). Whatever your number is below that, it's not anywhere close to what an airline captain should be making, so your point is indefensible, even if your number is above $60k.

Regardless of that, if a guaranteed flow was to be established, guys wouldn't be at regionals long before they flowed up.

Oh, isn't that nice! Someone with a crystal ball. I remember all of the people who had those back in 2000 when I started my career. "You'll be scooped up by the majors as soon as you hit 1,000 TPIC." And then there was the wonderful CoEx flow-through that magically disappeared soon thereafter. Crystal balls are great....until you realize that people can't really see into the future.

You need to read more closely Todd. Notice on how I said nothing about the 50+ seat aircraft and pay cuts?

Ahh, ok, so it's fine for the guy flying the 50-seater to make peanuts, but the guy at the same company who flies an airplane with just 20 more seats gets to have a reasonable income. How magnanimous of you!

Oh would you relax already and stop throwing around personal insults? If my moral reasons got in my way, I would NOT have joined two organizing committees, which caused my job to be threatened and all the other 'fun' that goes along with being on the organizing committee twice of a non-union company.

The reason your posts are bothering me so much is because that guy who I worked those organizing drives with would be absolutely dumbfounded if he had taken a look into the future and seen himself saying the things that are being said here.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

And with that, I'm done. Continuing this conversation is just going to get me really pissed off to the point that I'm going to say something that I'll probably regret later. I'll just end by saying that I'm damned glad that I'm getting out of this profession. Because when the former union leaders (and the current ones) start justifying such things, it's likely that the profession is doomed. Forget Emirates and Qatar. We'll destroy ourselves long before they have a chance to try.

 

[mikecweb]

Mommy and daddy are fighting.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Mommy and daddy are fighting.

Yup. Talk about sexual tension...