Wagner chief listed among passengers on board crashed plane, Russian state media

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Similar with videos of MH17 when troops arrive on scene of the impact, and immediately find everything consistent with a civilian airliner and make shocked phone calls to higher ups of what kind of mistake they have discovered to have been made. With the commanders on the other end of the line dumbfounded that an airliner was in the area at all.

We’re supposed to love Ukraine. Did anyone ask why Ukraine kept their airspace open above FL320 to collect overflight fees, AFTER knowing a SAM took out an Antonov at FL220, and that any missile capable of hitting a plane at FL220 could easily hit one at FL350?


Nah. Who cares? It was a brown moose lamb airline.

 

[knot4u]

She’d thump Biden in the general, but there’s no chance she’d get close to the nomination.

So are you Biden 2024? I know an older (70+) life long pot smoking hippie lady and she mentioned that the DNC needs to figure out how to get him out of office because he's not mentally up to the task. She's a ride or die democrat and she's sick of it. Are you ride or die, will you vote D?

 

[Boris Badenov]

oh it goes further back than that….dubya basically shrugged when Putin went into Georgia.

To be fair to Dubya, there was at least a question as to whether Russia might like, uh, become Not-Russia, back then. There hasn't been one for at least 15 years, yet here we are.

 

[Boris Badenov]

So are you Biden 2024? I know an older (70+) life long pot smoking hippie lady and she mentioned that the DNC needs to figure out how to get him out of office because he's not mentally up to the task. She's a ride or die democrat and she's sick of it. Are you ride or die, will you vote D?

If Trump is the alternative, I'll vote the Senile Communist Ticket all day every day and twice on Sunday. As will every sane person. Uh, what is it? "No apologies, no surrender"? Fine.

 

[WacoFan]

If Trump is the alternative, I'll vote the Senile Communist Ticket all day every day and twice on Sunday. As will every sane person. Uh, what is it? "No apologies, no surrender"? Fine.

I'm...open to many types and backgrounds of women. I don't judge and such. But everyone knows a girl that is adequate but maybe she was with a really, really skazzy guy previously - and that's the dealbreaker. I've been in this position and I know others reading this have.

That, to me, is the Republican field in 2024. Any of those chodes who have not been consistently anti-Trump since 2016 (read - all of the candidates running currently) - have "been with the skazzy, tatted-up, syphilitic former boyfriend" and the idea of one of them makes me puke in my mouth a little bit. That's how I see the entire GOP at this point. They need to close up shop, ala the Whig Party, and do something new. Trump has ruined the brand that thoroughly.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

oh it goes further back than that….dubya basically shrugged when Putin went into Georgia.

Remember when Obama said Romney still thinks it’s US vs Russia, that old mentality?

 

[Boris Badenov]

Any of those chodes who have not been consistently anti-Trump since 2016 (read - all of the candidates running currently) - have "been with the skazzy, tatted-up, syphilitic former boyfriend" and the idea of one of them makes me puke in my mouth a little bit. That's how I see the entire GOP at this point. They need to close up shop, ala the Whig Party, and do something new. Trump has ruined the brand that thoroughly.

Well said. I'm temperamentally a Conservative (which I know comes as a shock to exactly no one). But I think rationally, too (A Conservative, that is...Let me explain it to you, it'll sound much better!). But, in any case, I'll be goddamned if I'll cast a vote for a party which is now pretty much OPENLY baying for the destruction of the Republic. Call me a Commie, IDGAF, at this point. I'd vote Hitler first. "Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an Ethos".

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

If Trump is the alternative, I'll vote the Senile Communist Ticket all day every day and twice on Sunday. As will every sane person. Uh, what is it? "No apologies, no surrender"? Fine.

Why?

I thought the Trump era from Jan 2017 to about March 2020 was great.


And side note, saying one would vote Hitler over Trump is a bad take. Trump may slaughter Democrat feelings and wokeness, but there’s a fine difference between that and, you know, actually slaughtering people…

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

If Trump is the alternative, I'll vote the Senile Communist Ticket all day every day and twice on Sunday. As will every sane person. Uh, what is it? "No apologies, no surrender"? Fine.

Except 2025-2029 you’re not picking Biden. You’re picking Kamala as the President of the United States. Because that is what’s gonna eventually happen.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Why?

I thought the Trump era from Jan 2017 to about March 2020 was great.


And side note, saying one would vote Hitler over Trump is a bad take. Trump may slaughter Democrat feelings and wokeness, but there’s a fine difference between that and, you know, actually slaughtering people…

I'm going to give you a pass for being young and not having seen much of the world, on this one. The Rules-Based post-WW2 order that was largely (although not entirely, and that's worth remembering) created, protected, and cultivated by the United States has seen an unparalleled increase in objectively quantifiable positive outcomes for human beings across the board. Like pretty much everyone has done better, in the long-term view. I'm guessing that History wasn't front and center of the curriculum at Jet U., but it's not too late to read a book or two.

Life prior to ~1945 was nasty, brutish, and short for the vast majority of humanity. We've done better, since then. Often with massive missteps, often in ways which were ethically questionable. Often in ways which benefitted those in industrialized nations more than those not. And often more slowly than all of us would like. But it was, and remains, an absolute *Revolution* in human society, and almost entirely for the Better. This is objectively true.

 

[WacoFan]

Why?

I thought the Trump era from Jan 2017 to about March 2020 was great.


And side note, saying one would vote Hitler over Trump is a bad take. Trump may slaughter Democrat feelings and wokeness, but there’s a fine difference between that and, you know, actually slaughtering people…

The Hoover era from March 1929 until October 1929 was swell.

The W Bush era from January 2001 until 9-11-2001 was excellent.

The Reagan era Third Quarter of 1983 to January 1989 was great.

People keep talking about the Trump Presidency and try to get me to judge...except for the COVID thing. But there was a global pandemic. And the leadership from the US Government, primarily its Chief Executive, was probably the greatest embarrassment we could ever have. It was French military in May 1940-levels of inept. Maybe even worse. For someone that used to get a hearty ration of Sh^t here at JC for actually believing in American exceptionalism it was injurious to witness. Not that COVID was the only problem - it wasn't - but that was the big one. Trump was an incompetent Chief Executive of his businesses, and he was incompetent as Chief Executive of the USA.

 

[ChasenSFO]

We’re supposed to love Ukraine. Did anyone ask why Ukraine kept their airspace open above FL320 to collect overflight fees, AFTER knowing a SAM took out an Antonov at FL220, and that any missile capable of hitting a plane at FL220 could easily hit one at FL350?


Nah. Who cares? It was a brown moose lamb airline.

Most airlines had already voluntarily routed flights outside of Ukraine. A Singapore Airlines A380 was nearby, which is surprising as that carrier is known for conservative safety measures historically, so it isn't just on MAS, but plenty of other airlines decided flying above a hot civil war zone was a bad idea before the shoot down. IIRC, there were NOTAMs out about the threat to aircraft, but several airlines continued to dispatch flights overhead.

 

[MikeD]

Most airlines had already voluntarily routed flights outside of Ukraine. A Singapore Airlines A380 was nearby, which is surprising as that carrier is known for conservative safety measures historically, so it isn't just on MAS, but plenty of other airlines decided flying above a hot civil war zone was a bad idea before the shoot down. IIRC, there were NOTAMs out about the threat to aircraft, but several airlines continued to dispatch flights overhead.

Airliners crossing a war zone isn't unheard of. Surface to air-wise, generally the threat has been MANPADS, not strategic SAMs. But, in this case of MH17, it was different.

21 years ago, I was providing Close Air Support at a friendly outpost called Lwara on the Afghan/Paki border south of Kabul. Heavy battle in progress, and I’m attempting to hit Taliban firing positions that are attacking the outpost, working my formation as needed to make it happen; and the RAF E-3 AWACS control jet is giving me traffic calls in-between my bombing and strafing attacks, of civil airliner traffic overhead descending into Pakistan and capping my flight in altitude in order to avoid impinging on their altitude blocks.

As Im coming off my bombing attacks in my recovery climb, Im watching decending 747 traffic crossing over the battle area I'm in. I do wonder what the airliner pax/crew must've been thinking, as they had to have seen the battle raging below, and the A-10s wreaking havoc with bombs, rockets, and strafing runs 10K-15K below them and the resultant explosions.

Weird as hell having to keep track of the fluid battle situation below while bombing and strafing the enemy, while at the same exact time having to acknowledge run of the mill traffic calls from AWACS. "[on VHF to AWACS] Yeah, copy Saxon, am visual separation on the Cathay 74 overhead; [followed immediately on UHF to ground Forward Air Controller] ...Lead's in hot from the west with trail-guns-15 seconds, hitting the south wall of your perimeter, understand they're inside your wire at the outer perimeter...."

Unreal amount of task division and situational awareness having to be maintained.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Most airlines had already voluntarily routed flights outside of Ukraine. A Singapore Airlines A380 was nearby, which is surprising as that carrier is known for conservative safety measures historically, so it isn't just on MAS, but plenty of other airlines decided flying above a hot civil war zone was a bad idea before the shoot down. IIRC, there were NOTAMs out about the threat to aircraft, but several airlines continued to dispatch flights overhead.

“Most”

Cite your source please. As best as I recall, it was just a couple, like countable on one hand. Air India was also nearby, along with a Singapore jet.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I'm going to give you a pass for being young and not having seen much of the world, on this one. The Rules-Based post-WW2 order that was largely (although not entirely, and that's worth remembering) created, protected, and cultivated by the United States has seen an unparalleled increase in objectively quantifiable positive outcomes for human beings across the board. Like pretty much everyone has done better, in the long-term view. I'm guessing that History wasn't front and center of the curriculum at Jet U., but it's not too late to read a book or two.

Life prior to ~1945 was nasty, brutish, and short for the vast majority of humanity. We've done better, since then. Often with massive missteps, often in ways which were ethically questionable. Often in ways which benefitted those in industrialized nations more than those not. And often more slowly than all of us would like. But it was, and remains, an absolute *Revolution* in human society, and almost entirely for the Better. This is objectively true.

Ok, I’d agree, but not sure what this has to do in regards to my comment Re: Trump comparison to Hitler.

 

[NovemberEcho]

The NOTAM for Ukraine was to fly no lower than FL320 or something around there and MH17 was a couple thousand feet above that

 

[ChasenSFO]

“Most”

Cite your source please. As best as I recall, it was just a couple, like countable on one hand. Air India was also nearby, along with a Singapore jet.

Every carrier I remember hearing was already avoiding that area was from the US or the EU, so all those Asian and Middle Eastern airlines were indeed just using it anyway. Which I suppose made up much of the traffic as the US\EU carriers probably didn't have much crossing that way. I'm not saying it should have stayed open, I'm just saying there was an opportunity to air on the side of caution. My point is I'm kind of shocked that large airlines trusted the judgment of Ukraine's aviation ministry over the news lol.

EDIT: When Khartoum broke out into war, a Saudia A330 was on base for a long final I think around 2,000 feet. I wonder if it would have gotten caught up in the action had it been landing or on short final when the battle broke out. I can't imagine the field training of the average soldier in battle was stellar. Lol.

 

[Baronman]

Vivek says (with lots of words, very rapidly) that we need to end this war though.

Nah, far more important that Ukraine becomes part of Nato. Who cares if the country is completely destroyed and is left a dysfunctional mess. Plenty more Ukrainians available to fight and potentially die.

 

[zmiller4]

Nah, far more important that Ukraine becomes part of Nato. Who cares if the country is completely destroyed and is left a dysfunctional mess. Plenty more Ukrainians available to fight and potentially die.

You’ve convinced me. Invading a sovereign nation and murdering/raping the crap of its civilians is totally not setting a precedent we should be concerned about.

 

[poser765]

Except 2025-2029 you’re not picking Biden. You’re picking Kamala as the President of the United States. Because that is what’s gonna eventually happen.

So? For those of you not keeping score of attempted subversion of democratic elections the scorecard looks like this…

Trump 1 - Harris 0.