NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
If it was the US being invaded, would you give up this easily?
Wagner chief listed among passengers on board crashed plane, Russian state media
- Thread starter fholbert
- Start date
If it was the US being invaded, would you give up this easily?
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Would you like to go down the list of countries the US has invaded and mettled in?
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
Absolutely!
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
My goal is to vote for Biden only to cancel out your vote.
I’ll use my other 12 votes (dead people) how I see fit. All Democrats have a pocket full of dead people votes.
I’ll also run a shuttle service between LAX to the nearest polling location for those arriving from The “Dominion Republic”. These foreigners will not only vote, they will program the voting machines to change 9 out of 10 Trump votes to Biden.
I’ll travel the country passing out USB thumb drives to all polling workers hidden in packets of cocaine. While there, a box of fake votes will be hidden under tables.
The morning after the election Biden will claim victory knowing fake electors working for Hugo Chavez (dead since 2013) will change the vote.
Hugo Chávez will ship black shoe polish disguised as hair dye to all members of the GOP to set a new trend on national TV.
Lastly, anyone who reports this on conservative media will be promptly fired.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Ok Libya.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Ukraine is in a war of attrition at this point with a power that outnumbers it and has the artillery advantage. I'm not sure what difference you'll see in the next year or two aside from more of the same leaving Ukraine in exactly the shape that the Russians wanted. A mess. But let it play out...keep funding it...I'm sure the next counteroffensive will work.
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
That’s the example you’re going to go with for a whataboutism with Russia invading Ukraine? Seriously?
Fixtur
Dunning-Kruger Expert
We should just let Russia have it. That would have saved a lot of (Russian) lives. Yes?
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
You forgot to add, mostly white Christian nation. That itself makes it critical for the west to do something about.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Have you seen the southern border? The Democrats gave up long ago.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
HJB
Well-Known Member
Have you? Please tell us your experience at the southern border. Women’s soccer and now the border.. do you just regurgitate what you hear on fox?
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
You know, I really didn’t think you could get any dumber but you just love to go above and beyond
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
The key word was invaded. It applies. A foreign group enters your country without authorization. You don’t need guns to make it an invasion.
HJB
Well-Known Member
The people you quote my friend, can’t tell the difference between the invaders, and your children. Think of that the next time you take a glance at them…
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Didn’t one of his state or national security folks warn him on record that if we didn’t respond to Georgia, we’d end up having the same thing in Ukraine?
Also, I’m pretty sure that the Baltics etc were under no delusions by then, and if we’d listened to our allies who’ve lived next to Russia forever they’d have pretty much called it. But, we all wanted to believe in the power of the free market or some such blarney.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
William Burns....Current head of the CIA....career diplomat....Ambassador to Russia when this memo was leaked thanks to WikiLeaks. Burns writing to Condaleeza Rice "NYET MEANS NYET: RUSSIA'S NATO ENLARGEMENT REDLINES"
Classified By: Ambassador William J. Burns. Reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).
1. (C) Summary. Following a muted first reaction to Ukraine's intent to seek a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) at the Bucharest summit (ref A), Foreign Minister Lavrov and other senior officials have reiterated strong opposition, stressing that Russia would view further eastward expansion as a potential military threat. NATO enlargement, particularly to Ukraine, remains "an emotional and neuralgic" issue for Russia, but strategic policy considerations also underlie strong opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia. In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene. Additionally, the GOR and experts continue to claim that Ukrainian NATO membership would have a major impact on Russia's defense industry, Russian-Ukrainian family connections, and bilateral relations generally. In Georgia, the GOR fears continued instability and "provocative acts" in the separatist regions. End summary. MFA: NATO Enlargement "Potential Military Threat to Russia" --------------------------------------------- --------------
2. (U) During his annual review of Russia's foreign policy January 22-23 (ref B), Foreign Minister Lavrov stressed that Russia had to view continued eastward expansion of NATO, particularly to Ukraine and Georgia, as a potential military threat. While Russia might believe statements from the West that NATO was not directed against Russia, when one looked at recent military activities in NATO countries (establishment of U.S. forward operating locations, etc. they had to be evaluated not by stated intentions but by potential. Lavrov stressed that maintaining Russia's "sphere of influence" in the neighborhood was anachronistic, and acknowledged that the U.S. and Europe had "legitimate interests" in the region. But, he argued, while countries were free to make their own decisions about their security and which political-military structures to join, they needed to keep in mind the impact on their neighbors.
3. (U) Lavrov emphasized that Russia was convinced that enlargement was not based on security reasons, but was a legacy of the Cold War. He disputed arguments that NATO was an appropriate mechanism for helping to strengthen democratic governments. He said that Russia understood that NATO was in search of a new mission, but there was a growing tendency for new members to do and say whatever they wanted simply because they were under the NATO umbrella (e.g. attempts of some new member countries to "rewrite history and glorify fascists").
4. (U) During a press briefing January 22 in response to a question about Ukraine's request for a MAP, the MFA said "a radical new expansion of NATO may bring about a serious political-military shift that will inevitably affect the security interests of Russia." The spokesman went on to stress that Russia was bound with Ukraine by bilateral obligations set forth in the 1997 Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership in which both parties undertook to "refrain from participation in or support of any actions capable of prejudicing the security of the other Side." The spokesman noted that Ukraine's "likely integration into NATO would seriously complicate the many-sided Russian-Ukrainian relations," and that Russia would "have to take appropriate measures." The spokesman added that "one has the impression that the present Ukrainian leadership regards rapprochement with NATO largely as an alternative to good-neighborly ties with the Russian Federation." Russian Opposition Neuralgic and Concrete -----------------------------------------
5. (C) Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touch a raw nerve in Russia, they engender serious concerns about the consequences for stability in the region. Not only does Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also fears unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests. Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face. 6. (C) Dmitriy Trenin, Deputy Director of the Carnegie Moscow Center, expressed concern that Ukraine was, in the long-term, the most potentially destabilizing factor in U.S.-Russian relations, given the level of emotion and neuralgia triggered by its quest for NATO membership. The letter requesting MAP consideration had come as a "bad surprise" to Russian officials, who calculated that Ukraine's NATO aspirations were safely on the backburner. With its public letter, the issue had been "sharpened." Because membership remained divisive in Ukrainian domestic politics, it created an opening for Russian intervention. Trenin expressed concern that elements within the Russian establishment would be encouraged to meddle, stimulating U.S. overt encouragement of opposing political forces, and leaving the U.S. and Russia in a classic confrontational posture. The irony, Trenin professed, was that Ukraine's membership would defang NATO, but neither the Russian public nor elite opinion was ready for that argument. Ukraine's gradual shift towards the West was one thing, its preemptive status as a de jure U.S. military ally another. Trenin cautioned strongly against letting an internal Ukrainian fight for power, where MAP was merely a lever in domestic politics, further complicate U.S.-Russian relations now.
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Fixtur
Dunning-Kruger Expert
The best part about that line of reasoning is that BEFORE the invasion, NATO was not likely to expand, and especially not to include Ukraine. Way too much downside for very little upside. Now we've got Sweden and Finland and there are serious talk about Ukraine joining when appropriate.
4D chess indeed...
4D chess indeed...
