UPS A300 down at Birmingham AL

jtrain609 said:
It means don't move for a regional job.

I've lived in two states and been based in three and I've been furloughed once. How foolish would I have been to have moved to New Jersey only to be furloughed in under 12 months?

Heck, I don't even know if it makes sense to move for a mainline carrier. I'll bet those America West guys were certain that PHX was never going to go anywhere EVER. And I'm sure a bunch of guys at CAL thought that Houston would ALWAYS be where HQ was. And I'm also willing to bet a ton of guys that got hired at AirTran and then moved to Atlanta never thought they'd be forced to commute to, or move to, Oakland.
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How about PIT? Or STL? Those were some high departure airports with huge crew bases. Both are now ghost towns at best. Live where you want to live but understand that may come with crazy and sometimes impossible commutes.
 
2010 noobs at DL have gone through up to 5 base/equipment displacments over the past 3 years. Should they have sold their houses and moved their families for each one? Thousands more have been displaced including category closures/moves and MEM closing.

It's not the military, it's a commercial airline. And commuting is NOT always a choice.
 
At the risk of getting this thread back to something resembling its' title:

News report today:
Preliminary cockpit voice recorder data show the pilots were cleared to land on Runway 18/36 two minutes before the end of the recording, Sumwalt said.

Sixteen seconds before the end of the recording, the pilots received the first of two "sink rate" warnings, a mechanism which kicks in if the plane's descent does not match its programmed path, he added.

Thirteen seconds to the end, one crew member reported the runway was in sight.

Nine seconds prior to the end, there are "sounds that are consistent with impact," Sumwalt said.

The voice recorder also revealed the captain, Cerea Beal, Jr., was the flying pilot.
 
MikeD said:
Remember this. Thats life folks. Can't tell you how many times "needs of the service" dictated what the military did with me assignment-wise. I wasn't drafted, I volunteered; knowing the rules of the game. Some of the rules are similar at the airlines it appears. Just know the rules of the game before you take a seat at the table.
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Well, you almost got drafted by Gary Lopez to do a weather reconn for Cessna North.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
It's not the military, it's a commercial airline. And commuting is NOT always a choice.
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But the same thing between the two is that you know that's a possibility before you take the job. If someone doesn't know that's a possibility, then they seriously didn't do homework, or were sold the biggest bill of goods.
 
dustoff17 said:
At the risk of getting this thread back to something resembling its' title:

News report today:
Preliminary cockpit voice recorder data show the pilots were cleared to land on Runway 18/36 two minutes before the end of the recording, Sumwalt said.

Sixteen seconds before the end of the recording, the pilots received the first of two "sink rate" warnings, a mechanism which kicks in if the plane's descent does not match its programmed path, he added.

Thirteen seconds to the end, one crew member reported the runway was in sight.

Nine seconds prior to the end, there are "sounds that are consistent with impact," Sumwalt said.

The voice recorder also revealed the captain, Cerea Beal, Jr., was the flying pilot.
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Wow only 4 seconds between runway in sight and the start o impact...?
 
MikeD said:
But the same thing between the two is that you know that's a possibility before you take the job. If someone doesn't know that's a possibility, then they seriously didn't do homework, or were sold the biggest bill of goods.
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Missing the point. Is it seriously financially viable to uproot your family 5 times in 3 years with as measly of a moving package that DL provides? Absolutely not.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Missing the point. Is it seriously financially viable to uproot your family 5 times in 3 years with as measly of a moving package that DL provides? Absolutely not.
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Of course not. But things change unfortunately, for any variety of reasons: economy, bad management, competition, change of equipment, retirement of equipment, etc, etc. Those are realities of the biz. Some good, some not so good. Am just saying that people need to understand those possibilities exist, and not act shocked/surprised/sideswiped when they occur.
 
MikeD said:
Of course not. But things change unfortunately, for any variety of reasons: economy, bad management, competition, change of equipment, retirement of equipment, etc, etc. Those are realities of the biz. Some good, some not so good. Am just saying that people need to understand those possibilities exist, and not act shocked/surprised/sideswiped when they occur.
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Exactly. Getting into this biz with your eyes wide open and being well informed is essential. If the pay or QOL will be an issue if commuting is/becomes necessary, then have a good Plan B.

Realize that the cost of a crash pad, transport at the base, etc will add up. Flying in the night before and missing the last flight out are possibilities. Then those 3 days off turn into 1. Those are part of "living the dream," right?

The only certainty it that the commuter, as a professional, has to be ready (rested) to perform the duty as assigned. If that means taking the next to the last flight to ensure you get out, that's what has to be done. Maintenance, weather, bumped by more senior folks -- any number of things can leave the commuter without a seat when the music stops.
 
MikeD said:
Of course not. But things change unfortunately, for any variety of reasons: economy, bad management, competition, change of equipment, retirement of equipment, etc, etc. Those are realities of the biz. Some good, some not so good. Am just saying that people need to understand those possibilities exist, and not act shocked/surprised/sideswiped when they occur.
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Yep, however we are discussing commuting here, not being shocked/surprised that it's happening because it does. It was stated that commuting is a choice. That is not always the case in the airline biz, particularly in times of upheaval, even at top tier carriers.
 
I admit that I don't have all the facts. But it seems like the community castrated the Asiana pilots for a deadly mistake*, yet blamed the system for the UPS pilots deadly mistake*. Are there not many parallels?

*pure conjecture on the 'mistake' part
 
Jafari RastaMan said:
I admit that I don't have all the facts. But it seems like the community castrated the Asiana pilots for a deadly mistake*, yet blamed the system for the UPS pilots deadly mistake*. Are there not many parallels?

*pure conjecture on the 'mistake' part
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Well, it seems like Asiana blew a visual approach.

It seems that UPS, well, may have done the same but who know what happened yet.
 
Jafari RastaMan said:
I admit that I don't have all the facts. But it seems like the community castrated the Asiana pilots for a deadly mistake*, yet blamed the system for the UPS pilots deadly mistake*. Are there not many parallels?

*pure conjecture on the 'mistake' part
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At BEST, anything about company rules or rest rules or "the system" being to blame would be tertiary factors, at BEST.

If it comes out that the pilots flew a perfectly good plane into the ground short of the runway on an approach, then they will still bear the brunt of the primary causal factor for the accident. Everything else will be contributory.
 
Derg said:
Jafari RastaMan said:
I admit that I don't have all the facts. But it seems like the community castrated the Asiana pilots for a deadly mistake*, yet blamed the system for the UPS pilots deadly mistake*. Are there not many parallels?
*pure conjecture on the 'mistake' part
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Well, it seems like Asiana blew a visual approach.

It seems that UPS, well, may have done the same but who know what happened yet.
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I don't think we've completely let the UPS pilot's off the hook yet, but they have been given the benefit of the doubt up to this point. To be fair they were flying on an instrument approach in an airport at night as opposed to a VFR approach during the day. As further evidence mounts, it could be that they did in fact fly a perfectly good airplane into the ground due to pilot error.

What was the root cause of a two crew cockpit allowing an airplane to crash short of the runway?

I think this same fundamental question has been asked about the Asiana crash, and I think it is quite clear that the training culture of their airline has been the big issue. I don't think (if it does come down to pilot error) that people will come to the same conclusion with the training of the UPS pilots, but it will be some other factor that contributed instead.

My sincerest respect to those who lost their lives that day, and for all those affected by this accident. I hope we can all learn something from this accident at the very least. I'm not sure if we can say much was learned from the Asiana accident aside from the system that placed those pilots there is messed up.
 
Jafari RastaMan said:
I admit that I don't have all the facts. But it seems like the community castrated the Asiana pilots for a deadly mistake*, yet blamed the system for the UPS pilots deadly mistake*. Are there not many parallels?

*pure conjecture on the 'mistake' part
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Asiana was day VFR, videotaped, and non critical terrain.

UPS was at night at the end of 3 legs with a non-augmented crew on the back side of the clock on a terrain critical runway flying a non-precision approach. A lot of factors have to be cleared before crucifying the pilots.
 
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