ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
KLB said:
Wasn't that your schedule at DSU? 8)
UPS A300 down at Birmingham AL
- Thread starter ComplexHiAv8r
- Start date
Wasn't that your schedule at DSU? 8)
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Yeah. Definitely not fun. hence the reason why I am in training at a regional. Even a reserve schedule is better.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
I've not once argued with scheduling when sick or fatigued, but would refusing a flight assignment like what @KLB has described result in bad things happening to you in the 135 world?
It's not an unusual event.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
The "bad things happening" or the "refusing"?
The schedule.
Where I worked it would not have gone over well.
Our schedule was 95% on duty between 1800-2100 and 0500-0800, Mon night through Sat morning. The problem was if we got delayed somehow which prevented us from being off duty from 2100 - 0500 and the company would just declare that we're now "on duty all night" so even if we didn't get off duty until 2300 we were still back at the airport at 0500. I had a few calls at 2200 after being off duty that I had to go rescue a plane so now I was going to be up all night. Not fun.
I've yet to really do the regional thing, but to me any regional schedule blows the UPS feeder sked out of the water.
Our schedule was 95% on duty between 1800-2100 and 0500-0800, Mon night through Sat morning. The problem was if we got delayed somehow which prevented us from being off duty from 2100 - 0500 and the company would just declare that we're now "on duty all night" so even if we didn't get off duty until 2300 we were still back at the airport at 0500. I had a few calls at 2200 after being off duty that I had to go rescue a plane so now I was going to be up all night. Not fun.
I've yet to really do the regional thing, but to me any regional schedule blows the UPS feeder sked out of the water.
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
At a regional that overall had pretty good scheduling, and one month I ended up with nearly the exact schedule you just described (except it started Tuesda and ended Friday morning). Show at 7PM, fly a 2+ hr flight to an oft-delayed airport, get to the hotel by 11 (time change), 5:30 AM van, back in base by 8AM. And I was commuting 800 miles.
It was my choice and I made it work by finding a hotel that would let me check in early on Wednesday morning after the first night and check out late Thursday afternoon so I was only paying for one night, and that got me plenty of rest during the day. But the couple of times we were delayed badly, it was not fun.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
It likely would not end well for the pilot if constantly calling in fatigued or sick. Once you end up on management's • list you really wont be getting any favors or slack.
I have refused flight assignments for the actions of management stupidity in scheduling (or lack thereof). I actually heard nothing back from them after I have done that which is surprising as the AMF ACPs have to tell BUR about pilots turning down flights. Then again he probably said nothing since both times were blatantly his fault (both in the same week).
Yeah, apparently we have some CDOs as well so I guess you can never truly escape it, but ultimately at a regional once you have some seniority and can get away from it. If you're flying for a carrier where CDOs are pretty much what the business model is based on, no bueno.
And some further irony, the company would also do an all hands pilot meeting usually at 9PM, so on those nights you'd be "on duty all night," home by 11, then back to the airport no later than 0500. Once we got an email that we had to have one of those meetings at 2100 specifically for "FAA mandated fatigue training."
To add to that, on the piston side the usual show time was between 0400 and 0500 depending on when you got off duty the previous evening (they wanted you to have 8 hours of "rest"). So if you could duty off at say 2045, your show time was 0445, but if your off duty time was 2110, they'd just keep you on all night and have you show at 0400.
No idea how Amflight handles such schedules, but I'm so glad to be done with the feeder life.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
It would result in bad things in the 135 world where there is slimy management. Respectable companies wouldn't put you in that position in the first place.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
If you hit a certain number, do they hand out the go pills?Risk management worksheets haave been standard practice in USAF units for over a decade now. Although their utility is questionable. I remember one flight one night in the A-10. The sheet worked on a point system, if your point totals came up above (at the time) 15 or so, it required you to be taken off the mission. Mine came to something like 17. The supervisor reviewed it and said "17? What can we omit here to make it an even 15 so you can fly; we dont have a backup pilot tonight and need the sorties."
Seggy
Well-Known Member
I am even more taken aback after reading below.
There is a BIG difference between rest and sleep. You need proper sleep to show up physically fit for duty.
No argument that it is the responsibility to show up well rested for duty. Where have I said otherwise? Like I said, at Colgan, 5% of the fatigue calls were 'self induced' by the pilot. The other 95% were the companies fault. Do you have accurate statistics? Or just assuming it is the pilot's fault.
This above sleep time represents a stand up overnight, CDO, etc sleep 'expectation' pattern we have seen at many regionals. Some regionals have up to 40% of their lines based on these schedules, so it is a larger percent than what you make it out to be. Under the new flight time duty time rules, these types of schedules are not allowed.
Once again, where did I say that it is never the pilot's responsibility? At Colgan, 5% of the cases we saw were self induced by the pilot. Airlines aren't a social clubs, yes, but you are making it out that a majority of the time the pilot is responsible. This is not the case, it is almost always the airline's fault.
As you like to talk about personal responsibility, self analysis, and disclosure, if you have been flying for 10 days straight, then you are flying fatigued. If you look at the new Flight Time/Duty Time rules flying 10 Flight Duty Periods straight will not be allowed. You would need about 2 days off, free from duty in that time period to gain proper rest, based on the science of the new Flight Time/Duty Time rules. So how are you going to address this then? Remember, these new rules are based on science, not what you may think is rest.
Like I said above, you are currently flying fatigued right (based on the science of the Flight Time/Duty Time Rules) now so it is your responsibility to correct it.
It is more about using peer pressure to modify behavior. Education is a big part of it as well. So if you are flying 14 hour duty days straight for 10 days, take a look at the new Part 117.25. Beer or no beer you are currently flying fatigued.
Yes, I know what Pro Standards is about, thanks.
Last edited:
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Never said that. It wasn't as clear as it should have been but I was talking back side of the clock. You don't see very many passenger flights flying when cargo is flying. You have a red eye here or there but it isn't a continuous night schedule for the passenger 121 peeps. Flying on the backside of the clock really fatigues me faster than flying during the day. This is especially true at sunrise. My body starts to shutdown for some odd reason right as the sun comes up.
What is terrible is that I had a schedule that showed 3 days off each week but the problem is that the first day I would sleep away and the last day I would intentionally have to wake up extra early and be a zombie for the day so I could fall asleep at 5PM for a 2AM show time. Essentially 1 day of "normal" and then back at it. That is living in base. Just think if commuting was involved like with UPS/FedEx/Atlas peeps.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Fatigue is an elusive science. Sometimes, you are fatigued and have no good reason. It's funny how people will accept a claim of illness without much scrutiny, but tell somebody you are tired when you don't have the grueling schedule to justify it and eyebrows are raised.
Cal Goat
Prestige Worldwide™
Oh come on... You're saying a single pilot, minimal instrumented cargo operation creates a culture of cowboys and oneupmanship?
Even though the management gave lip service to thoughtful and safe practices during operations, there was an undeniable culture of dick-measuring at that place. Everyone had a crazy story that they were only too eager to share with you. And whatever crazy thing happened to you, someone within earshot would not be impressed because they saw something crazier.
I came close to slapping one of our former coworkers for talking crap about other pilots who "didn't have the balls" to scud-run from ACV to EKA.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
I thought so as well, but that is actually a myth. The science is included in the new Part 117 rules which are VERY similar to what the Europeans have been using for years.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
Oh come on... You're saying a single pilot, minimal instrumented cargo operation creates a culture of cowboys and oneupmanship?
Even though the management gave lip service to thoughtful and safe practices during operations, there was an undeniable culture of dick-measuring at that place. Everyone had a crazy story that they were only too eager to share with you. And whatever crazy thing happened to you, someone within earshot would not be impressed because they saw something crazier.
I came close to slapping one of our former coworkers for talking crap about other pilots who "didn't have the balls" to scud-run from ACV to EKA.
Lol! Ya, being removed from that stuff now just makes me really laugh at that mentality. The rest of the industry could care less, and usually frown upon that mentality. Most, if not all 121 companies want nothing to do with pilots that carry a mentality like that. Hell the same goes for other 135 operations besides freight.