UPS A300 down at Birmingham AL

I have 14 hour duty days and up to 8 flight hours, with a maximum of 36 in 6 days or I need the next day off. I am not saying I am not experiencing fatigue, but I am mitigating it. I don't have statistics. There are lies damn lies and statistics.
Seggy said:
There is a BIG difference between rest and sleep. You need proper sleep to show up physically fit for duty.



No argument that it is the responsibility to show up well rested for duty. Where have I said otherwise? Like I said, at Colgan, 5% of the fatigue calls were 'self induced' by the pilot. The other 95% were the companies fault. Do you have accurate statistics? Or just assuming it is the pilot's fault.

s you like to talk about personal responsibility, self analysis, and disclosure, if you have been flying for 10 days straight, then you are flying fatigued. If you look at the new Flight Time/Duty Time rules flying 10 Flight Duty Periods straight will not be allowed. You would need about 2 days off, free from duty in that time period to gain proper rest, based on the science of the new Flight Time/Duty Time rules. So how are you going to address this then? Remember, these new rules are based on science, not what you may think is rest.



Like I said above, you are currently flying fatigued right (based on the science of the Flight Time/Duty Time Rules) now so it is your responsibility to correct it.



It is more about using peer pressure to modify behavior. Education is a big part of it as well. So if you are flying 14 hour duty days straight for 10 days, take a look at the new Part 117.25. Beer or no beer you are currently flying fatigued.
Click to expand...
You can bet that people don't call in fatigued when they are (fatigued) from activities at home...they just fly. So I think your statistic is naturally skewed due to that reality.
If you call in before you show up to work because you wanted to have a life, then you're not going to get paid.
 
Murdoughnut said:
There has to be some line in the sand, though. Like the Colgan FO commuting from Seattle to JFK ... c'mon, I get not being able to live in NYC, but surely there's some place cheaper one can live in between the two coasts.
Click to expand...

She was living in ORF with her husband and just wasn't making enough to continue living alone. She moved back west and my understanding is that both her and the husband were living in the SEA area with family members. When you get paid dirt wages, people will fall back on a support network which is usually family. I don't blame her one bit for living in SEA close to family.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I've not once argued with scheduling when sick or fatigued, but would refusing a flight assignment like what @KLB has described result in bad things happening to you in the 135 world?
Click to expand...

It all depends on the employer. Luckily at my company, so long as you don't abuse the policy, nobody will come hunting after you. I've never called in fatigued, but just the other day I had to negotiate with scheduling. My shows all week have been in the morning (0500-0700) and we're usually done by late afternoon. Got a call to do a 0800 flight, ending by 10-1100, immediately into rest, then show again 11 hours later that night for an 0200 flight that would have us ending around 9am the following morning. I quickly refused the first morning flight, since being in "rest" even for 11 hours until midnight, doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to be sleeping all day, or be fit to fly 8 hours through the entire following night. I can't just swing my body clock to go to sleep at noon or 1pm, in order to be fit to fly through the entire night.

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
She was living in ORF with her husband and just wasn't making enough to continue living alone. She moved back west and my understanding is that both her and the husband were living in the SEA area with family members. When you get paid dirt wages, people will fall back on a support network which is usually family. I don't blame her one bit for living in SEA close to family.
Click to expand...

Not knowing anything about her, and simply being on the sideline, I don't understand why she couldn't live closer. We all know getting paid dirt wages makes life very difficult, but I don't believe for a second that there wasn't somewhere she could have lived on the same coast. Being close to family is one thing, and if that's the reason just say it, instead of saying that there wasn't anything more affordable between EWR and SEA.
 
Mark815 said:
Not knowing anything about her, and simply being on the sideline, I don't understand why she couldn't live closer. We all know getting paid dirt wages makes life very difficult, but I don't believe for a second that there wasn't somewhere she could have lived on the same coast. Being close to family is one thing, and if that's the reason just say it, instead of saying that there wasn't anything more affordable between EWR and SEA.
Click to expand...
If you can't afford to live in the city your based in and are forced to commute that is just disgusting. I, like Cherokee, put that piece 100% on Colgan.
 
z987k said:
If you can't afford to live in the city your based in and are forced to commute that is just disgusting. I, like Cherokee, put that piece 100% on Colgan.
Click to expand...

How is it Colgans fault? They force her to take the job? I get the frustration you have, believe me. I'm ATL based, and live on the west coast. My commute sucks. But I (semi)willingly took this job knowing that my life was going to suck for a while.
 
z987k said:
If you can't afford to live in the city your based in and are forced to commute that is just disgusting. I, like Cherokee, put that piece 100% on Colgan.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with you, but what role does the decision to take out loans factor into this? Student takes out $60k+ in student loans to get to the regionals as quickly as possible, and then can't afford their own place because most of their small paycheck goes towards the loan repayment (I have no idea if this was the situation for this girl, just discussing more in general). Who is that on? Without loan payments, you should be able to squeeze by for a few years on $20k a year - I did 2.5 years of grad school on $12k a year, but I had no debt. Can at least part of the blame be placed on someone taking out debt for a job that they know ahead of time won't pay them enough to live on their own? Surely you can rent a room from someone one hop away from JFK for $200 somewhere ... if this girl absolutely had to live with relatives then I would have to think her pay was going elsewhere - possibly flight school debt.

There are tends of thousands of janitors in NYC. None of them commute from across the country to get to work each day, which means they must be able to live somewhere relatively close by, right?
 
You can safely do a cross country commute if you take getting rest seriously. That means coming in the day before your trip starts, AND NOT ON THE REDEYE!!! Examples:

Say you live on the west coast and are based on the east coast. Your trip shows at 10:00 am eastern, and you take a flight from the west coast that gets you in at 10:00 pm eastern. You'll get 8 hours of sleep, and you'll be coming on duty at 7:00 am body clock time.

That beats the heck out of the 2:30 am (body clock time) wake up that I do in Halifax, and I live in eastern time!
 
z987k said:
If you can't afford to live in the city your based in and are forced to commute that is just disgusting. I, like Cherokee, put that piece 100% on Colgan.
Click to expand...

I also can't disagree with you entirely, but as others have already said, there are people in varying professions who don't make a lot of money (similar to first year regional pilots), but can still afford to live SOMEWHERE in the area. I think the pay and work conditions are bad, but I can't blame an airline 100% when the person takes the job and decides to commute from one coast to another.

When I initially moved for my current job, the only thing I could find in my price range was small, over garage studios in not the best of areas. I searched out and found 3 other roommates to rent a house, and not only made it work, but actually had a halfway decent place to live without spending more than I had wanted to.
 
You don't have to commute, you choose to commute. You trade off your comfort in one area for your comfort in another. It's not the employers fault you took a job and agreed to do it to the best of your ability and then decided you'd rather live somewhere where your ability to do so is compromised. It's an entry level job, you'll find yourself living in areas or with roommates where entry level employees live. You can't have it all right away...
 
Weeeeell, I think it's a little more complex.

There are a lot of people that settled in a base city that had that base closed.

You know, nevermind, I think even at that point, they can move to the new city or face all of the opportunity costs by staying in the former base.

I love it how I start a post with one perspective, have an epiphany mid-post and change my mind.
 
Derg said:
Weeeeell, I think it's a little more complex.

There are a lot of people that settled in a base city that had that base closed.

You know, nevermind, I think even at that point, they can move to the new city or face all of the opportunity costs by staying in the former base.

I love it how I start a post with one perspective, have an epiphany mid-post and change my mind.
Click to expand...

A base opens in Chicago and the company expanded the hell out of it. On a list of 2,600 pilots, something close to 900 of them were in Chicago. There was much rejoicing.

24 months later, the needs of the company changed and now there are only 450 pilots in Chicago.

Many of those folks moved to reap the "benefits" of living in base (a base that, mind you, only had like 10 day trip lines during the best months). Now they'll be scattered across the country.

Never. Ever. Ever. EVER, move to a base for a regional.

EVER.
 
jtrain609 said:
A base opens in Chicago and the company expanded the hell out of it. On a list of 2,600 pilots, something close to 900 of them were in Chicago. There was much rejoicing.

24 months later, the needs of the company changed and now there are only 450 pilots in Chicago.

Many of those folks moved to reap the "benefits" of living in base (a base that, mind you, only had like 10 day trip lines during the best months). Now they'll be scattered across the country.

Never. Ever. Ever. EVER, move to a base for a regional.

EVER.
Click to expand...
OK...so does this mean stay flexible while you build your career? Or just try to stick it out and deal? Because if it's not sustainable, then it won't be sustained...and then the company will have to react because people won't work there...IDK I know it's more complex, and we want to do what we want to do, but at what cost?
 
Don't get me wrong, I agree.

However there is a certain opportunity cost involved with not moving. I wouldn't buy and sell houses at the whim of crew planning either. But it comes at a varied cost.

I've only not commuted for probably 3(-ish) years of a two decade career.
 
I drove 4 hours to go to work...and that was barely sustainable when I had four day trips..when I dropped into reserve, after being a lineholder captain, I had to readjust. I rented an room in a house outside of FAT...I was glad when another opportunity opened up. I quit.
 
Bumblebee said:
OK...so does this mean stay flexible while you build your career? Or just try to stick it out and deal? Because if it's not sustainable, then it won't be sustained...and then the company will have to react because people won't work there...IDK I know it's more complex, and we want to do what we want to do, but at what cost?
Click to expand...

It means don't move for a regional job.

I've lived in two states and been based in three and I've been furloughed once. How foolish would I have been to have moved to New Jersey only to be furloughed in under 12 months?

Heck, I don't even know if it makes sense to move for a mainline carrier. I'll bet those America West guys were certain that PHX was never going to go anywhere EVER. And I'm sure a bunch of guys at CAL thought that Houston would ALWAYS be where HQ was. And I'm also willing to bet a ton of guys that got hired at AirTran and then moved to Atlanta never thought they'd be forced to commute to, or move to, Oakland.
 
ok, or be more able to move...think more like a military family if you want this career...maybe we need to reevaluate the optics on what it takes to do this, and if the moneys not there, then don't do it if you can't afford it.

Heck my wife stayed here in our home in Grass Valley, and I lived in four different places while I developed my career...my situation is unique, but everyone has a unique situation. Some it works for, some it doesn't.
 
jtrain609 said:
the needs of the company changed .
Click to expand...

Remember this. Thats life folks. Can't tell you how many times "needs of the service" dictated what the military did with me assignment-wise. I wasn't drafted, I volunteered; knowing the rules of the game. Some of the rules are similar at the airlines it appears. Just know the rules of the game before you take a seat at the table.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top